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Tech Forum : Euro 323i head on a 2.7l super eta

- BMW E21 Community
   - Tech Forum
      - Euro 323i head on a 2.7l super eta
modifiede30   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 3:38pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1

MA
1990 327i
I recently built a 2.7l stroker using a super eta. I've been a bit disappointed in performance and someone recently found a european 323i head. I'm curious if anyone here has ever experimented with the 323i heads and super eta bottom end. I'm particularly interested in finding out if this would increase compression. Thanks for any help.

JJG323   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 4:05pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 532
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Brandon Whitehead runs the supereta in his 79 323i.

Question what is the casting number of the head that you are presently using for your car?

I heard that the one to use is the casting number 885 on it.

The e30 323i head is the 200 one and thats not as good as the other head.

Question 2. Why are you disapointed with the stroker.. is it that the engine jsut plain does not deliver?

later,
J

BruceH   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 4:30pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 444
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
The 731 head is the e21 euro head. This is the common mate to the 2.7 bottom end. Go here http://e21.tricord.be/e21/about/m20/cylinder-heads.php for all the info.

I am in the same boat as I am pulling the 2.7 bottom with the 200 head and replacing with a fresh 2.7 with the 731.

Bruce

imaradiostar   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 5:26pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 305
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
Just did mine- 2.7 eta bottom, 731 head. I'm quite happy with the performance.

jamie

modifiede30   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 5:56pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 2

MA
1990 327i
My current head is a 2.5l casting with 7 journals, but don't know the casting number. My main issue with the current stroker is that it doesn't seem to have as much low end pull as I had hoped.

I'm not familiar with the european heads for 323i's but I'm wondering if it would increase compression, as that seems to be the primary problem. The standard 2.5l casted combustion chambers are shaped differently than the standard eta and I suspect the 323i. I wonder if the different shape might increase compression.

BruceH   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 6:55pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 445
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
There is a 7 bearing 200 head. I didn't believe there was such a thing but I saw one at Wil Bryants place. My 200 is the 4 bearing.

All 731 heads have 7 bearings, stiffer springs, different cam and I believe that the shape is different.

Bruce

RDAvena   Posted Friday, Mar 11th 6:59pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1114
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
what fuel management system is running this engine? It can not be said that the cam is keeping the engine from performing since BruceH has a four cam head in his Baur and he has said it revs just like a stock 323i and this is with the low lift cam.

There are tricks to increase compression but this is when you use the e21 323i with the 2.7l bottom. The compression is reduced due to the dished pistons and shorter connecting rods. A super eta engine is basically a M20B25 engine with the longer stroke. Same head, pistons, but a different crank. It just seems that your 2.7l may be tuned wrong. Details will help diagnose it further.

modifiede30   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 12:32am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 3

MA
1990 327i
Tuning is definitely an issue. Its currently running the 1.3 Motronic with an Alpina chip. The cam is a 274, bored tb, ported head/intake, headers, catless, remus exhaust, 19lb injectors. While I'm a little disappointed in the low end, I suspect this has to do with the other mods. However, I beleive more compression would help a bit. I'm probably going to have a new 2.5l head redone and see what happens. The casting I had found was the 7 journal but it appears the valves are 2mm smaller than on the "i" so I suspect this wouldn't help, nor would it fit from what I understand do to valve clearance.

For tuning in the future, I'm about to drop in a megasquirt fuel management unit and will subsequently modify the crank trigger wheel for ignition management purposes using Squirt'n'Spark. At that time, I'll probably also install the adjustable cam sproket. Fuel ratios are currently spot on based on my wideband unit but I believe I can squeeze a bit more out of it if I can see the entire fuel curve/ignition timing together. The megasquirt should provide sufficient tuning options. Now I just need to figure out how to get my individual throttle bodies mounted and I'll be all set - although I'm miss the low end even more at this point. It is a track car though so I guess low end is much less useful than top end.

Marquis_Rex   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 12:52am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 240
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
BruceH wrote:
The 731 head is the e21 euro head. This is the common mate to the 2.7 bottom end. Go here http://e21.tricord.be/e21/about/m20/cylinder-heads.php for all the info.

I am in the same boat as I am pulling the 2.7 bottom with the 200 head and replacing with a fresh 2.7 with the 731.

Bruce


The E21 was infact fitted with the "200 head casting. The E30 323i (along with the 320i-6) was fitted with the better flowing "731 cylinder head. "885 cyl head was fitted to both the 325i and "super eta" cars. Although the "731 cyl head has much better flow performance than the "200 cyl head it has the same chamber volume, and valve sizes.

The E28 and E30 earlier eta cars has cyl head casting very similar to the one used on the E21.

BTW I WROTE that article on M20 cylinder heads years ago when I was still studying -doing my Automotive MSc. It is essenstially still correct but there are points I wouldn't have perhaps "jumped" to- if I were to re-write it!

Modified E30, the "885 head is really beautiful and flows very well. A "731 cyl head even ported would have trouble approaching those levels of flow. To increase compression could you instead change pistons from a Euro application?

modifiede30   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 1:20am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 4

MA
1990 327i
Yeah, when I was building the engine I had searched for several months for the high compression euro pistons and couldn't find any so I just stuck with the super eta pistons. The compression isn't all that bad, but it would be nice to get up into the low 10's if I could, just to squeeze things a bit more. If I'm not mistake the super eta compression is in the low to mid 9's. Given the cam I have, and the 288 I'll likely put in when I redo the head, I'm sure the compression will be a bit lower so increasing it now would be ideal.

I'll likely shave the head slightly more than specifications indicate, maybe .035" so total shaving would be about .085" if I recall. Need to go back to my figures for the actual numbers. Not going to pull the engine so decking at this point isn't an option.

modifiede30   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 1:21am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 5

MA
1990 327i
I guess one thing I should add is that since I started with an m20/b25, my options for heads were pretty close to ideal - since I also had a complete super eta engine. The thought of the 323i euro head was only if it would increase compression - but this would require the valves to be the same size.

MayanArch   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 3:55am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 270
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
What year and car did the 885 head come in?

Is there a real noticeable difference with the 200 head?......something that can be felt in street driving?

Dont tell me I have to change my head also>>>>>

modifiede30   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 4:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 10

MA
1990 327i
Not sure about any difference that would be experienced between the 200 and 885. I've always had the 885 so I can't help much. My understanding is that the 885 is only slightly larger in terms of ports, but the valves are 2mm smaller than the 885, which is where the real difference would likely be felt.

On the plus side, the smaller ports could aid in the velocity factor, which is a plus for torque.

JJG323   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 8:08am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 535
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Hi,
I once found a 87 325i in the yard and after 3 tries and a sawzall, pulled the head. It had the 325i manifold and was a 200 head. The 200 head has the BMW emblem Roundel on the valve cover and snaller valves and ports from what was explained to me... it was stamped eta 2.5/2.7 on it.

Then the when I brought the 200 head up to the counter, they wanted to charge me $375 for it, casue they thought like me it was the later model head. I paid $150 for it.

So the in 87 the 325i head was a 200 head and in 90 or so the head on the 325i was an 885 head.

Next I found a 91 325i and took the head off.
Its a 885 head which has larger valves and ports.
I have a 1989 325i block bored out to 2.8 liters with metic mechanic pistons and knife edge 524 td crank and 524 oil pump.

The 885 head says BMW on the valve cover... although when I get around to it I will be using a hartge valve cover for mine.

Dude if you are not running the 885 head I think you can put oversize valves in the 200 head, but due to the ports you are better off finding a 885 one for your car. It does make a difference.

For a more techincal explaintion you have to ask Ray or Marquis...

later,
Joe

MayanArch   Posted Saturday, Mar 12th 11:31pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 275
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
modifiede30 wrote:

On the plus side, the smaller ports could aid in the velocity factor, which is a plus for torque.


Interesting......

I am more interested in torque than HP.....since this is a street car. I want to be able to really pull around the turns and out of the box.

QUESTION:

Can the 323i intake manifold from a 200 head be modified to take the Motronic or Megasquirt injections system?

imaradiostar   Posted Sunday, Mar 13th 1:00am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 307
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
MayanArch wrote:


Interesting......

I am more interested in torque than HP.....since this is a street car. I want to be able to really pull around the turns and out of the box.

QUESTION:

Can the 323i intake manifold from a 200 head be modified to take the Motronic or Megasquirt injections system?


You could stick with the 200 casting head, use E21 323i cam and springs and end up with a very torquey engine. The bigger port head makes for more of a rev-happy engine when using the 885 casting head (and matching 2.5 valve train).

Either head is suitable for either fuel injection system if you use the correct intake manifold. The manifolds to use are from a 2.7 eta for the 200 casting head and a 2.5 for the 885 casting head. If you wanted to use the E21 manifold with electronic fuel injection you'd need special adapters. It's easier to just use the electronic injection manifold that matches your head.

jamie

MayanArch   Posted Sunday, Mar 13th 3:34am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 280
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Excellent...thanks.

Should I leave the smaller valves from the 323i....in order to keep the torque?

What effect do bigger valves have? Do they make the engine hunger for RPM's like the larger ports do?

imaradiostar   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 5:40am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 312
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
For the sake of making the project easy I'd just stick with the stock valve sizes for now. Larger valves will flow better but if you're not looking for a high-revving engine then I wouldn't worry about it. Use what you have and make it run!

jamie

nsbone   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 3:40pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 271
   
KL, Malaysia
e21 323/6 316, e34 520i, e32 730i
i think 731 head has "double springs" on a valve, so it ensure good hi revving.

i think super eta has domed piston, so 885 head may be more suitable...perhaps, with 2.5 pistons will give suitable compression, just a thought...

MayanArch   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 5:09pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 287
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
imaradiostar wrote:
For the sake of making the project easy I\'d just stick with the stock valve sizes for now. Larger valves will flow better but if you\'re not looking for a high-revving engine then I wouldn\'t worry about it. Use what you have and make it run!

jamie


Sounds like a plan. But what about the cam? Should I regrind that to 272?

I am looking for a relatively high reving engine. High enough to have fun in the street, but not high to track standards....where it starts compromising bottom end torque.

I definetly want higher revs than the 325e. That thing just dies when you hit a certain RPM.

Also.....what should I do about this extremely dirty head?? Should I have it cleaned and valves reseated? WHat is the recommendation?

modifiede30   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 6:18pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 12

MA
1990 327i
I'd have the head checked for cracks, valves reseated, and you might as well go ahead and have the valve guides redone too. Also, when doing anything with the cam, you'll need new rocker arms and shafts, otherwise you'll wear the cam lobes prematurely.

RDAvena   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 6:58pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1119
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
All new rocker arms are not required. BMW states only where there is evidence of being loose, wear, or scoring. If they show any of the above they can be replaced.

If the arms are loose the majority of the time the brass bushing can be replaced.

MayanArch   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 7:15pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 288
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Does anyone have a shop that is known for this type of work on cylinder heads?

I am afraid to send it to one of these head rebuilding services......and have them put in 325e parts on the 200 head.

RDAvena   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 7:24pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1121
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
buy a valve spring compressor and take the head apart. Then you can bring the bare head to a machine shop and ask them to perform the work you need. For one it will be cheaper since you have eliminated the labor of taking your head apart and when you put it together you know you still have the dual valvesprings and all of the other bits.

Or you can follow Tri's writeup on refurbishing a cylinder head.


modifiede30   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 10:08pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 13

MA
1990 327i
My understanding of the reason for replacing rocker arms relates more to the installation of a newly ground cam than the play that might be found between the arms and shafts. Although very small, patters are often worn into the lobes of the cam and rocker arms. If a reground cam is used with these rocker arms, it will prematurely wear both components.

RDAvena   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 10:15pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1123
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
how so if the rocker arms and the new cam/old cam(not reground) are made from the same hardened material? It can not be worn by means of clearance either since the valve adjustment is the same measure throughout the valve adjusting process. The footprint of the rocker arm is basically the same throughout. Flat. Unless there was a severe lack of oil rocker arms do not wear into the hardened cam surface enough to say they all need replacement. Same goes for any axial movement. If a reground cam is used then new cam eccentrics must be used because of the reground cam. Follow the machinists advice since they can determine normal or abnormal wear characteristics and the remedy for each. Often it is easier and better to follow what is written in the tech manuals than what is spread on the internet.

Hey, but whatever justifies spending $240.00 on new rocker arms correct?

MayanArch   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 10:59pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 290
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
RDAvena wrote:
buy a valve spring compressor and take the head apart. Then you can bring the bare head to a machine shop and ask them to perform the work you need. For one it will be cheaper since you have eliminated the labor of taking your head apart and when you put it together you know you still have the dual valvesprings and all of the other bits.

Or you can follow Tri\'s writeup on refurbishing a cylinder head.



QUESTION: Tri's writeup adjusts the valve clearances from the top of the head. I have heard of mechanics putting clay between the head and the block in order to see if the valves are hitting. Is this "clay adjustment" necessary if you perform Tricord's method of adjusting the valves?

Is a valve seating tool and spring compressor universal....or is there a recommended one for BMW's?

I looked on eBay and found all sorts of versions and adaptations of these tools. They all looked sufficiently different to cause concearn about getting the right tools.

RDAvena   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 11:13pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1124
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
valve clearance is a normal D.I.Y. process of maintaining your engine. You do not use clay for this. You might want to read the notes again.

Where clay is used is when you think there may be a chance that your valves might hit the piston top due to changes you have made in your engines geometry. For example shaving the head and decking the block, using pistons from another BMW engine, 2.5l pistons in the 2.7l block with the 200head, custom pistons, an aggressive cam that may hold the valve open too long. Part of the process of assembling an engine and certainly not part of the valve adjustment procedure.

You want to look at grinding valves not valve adjustment.

MayanArch   Posted Monday, Mar 14th 11:38pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 291
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
RDAvena wrote:
Where clay is used is when you think there may be a chance that your valves might hit the piston top due to changes you have made in your engines geometry. For example shaving the head and decking the block, using pistons from another BMW engine, 2.5l pistons in the 2.7l block with the 200head, custom pistons, an aggressive cam that may hold the valve open too long. Part of the process of assembling an engine and certainly not part of the valve adjustment procedure.

You want to look at grinding valves not valve adjustment.


Well, yes....the cam will be reground from stock to 272.....and I will put the 200 head on the ETA block. The pistons will be the ETA pistons.

Now, isnt shaving the head part of reconditioning it? Dont they shave it to make sure the surfaces are back to being perfectly flat? Wont the machine shop do this as a standard part of a head rebuild?


RDAvena   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 12:18am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1125
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
.010 or even less worth of a shave during head refurbishing is not enough to have a panic attack and go scrounge at the Hobby Lobby for some modelers clay. They are freshening up(squaring) the mating surface for the new headgasket not changing compression ratios as on a .040 shave.

Regrinding a cam is a lot more than what a normal machine shop will want to do. We were discussing cam and rocker arm wear not piston to valve interference.

With all of this misunderstanding you might want to go back to square one review basic machining practices, engine rebuilding and search the net for people that have built M20 stroker or not engines. Even other engines it does not matter as long as you learn the basics. This Question and Answer cycle is starting to get a little tedious. I understand completely that you do not know many of the basics when it comes to engine rebuilding or performance modification but spoonfeeding every last bit of data just to explain the why's and why not's can be, well tedious and this forum may not be the best venue to learn this. This is why the question of if you are proficient enough to undertake a restoration/performance upgrade and know all of the ins and outs associated with it or if it is better left to a professional that does know these details.

I did not know even half of what I have posted in this thread alone when I first started out but on one hand not wanting to be called a 'Newb' and on the other being curious I learned a little bit for having owned an e21 since 2000.

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 2:03am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 292
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Ray,

By all means....dont answer anything that you feel is tedious or a waste of your time. I have no intentions of being a nuisance to anyone....especially you since you are a lot of help.

I have been up and down many of the articles you are refering to.....and they simply dont answer many of the questions one would have. Like everyone says...this is by far the best E21 site....and probably the best BMW site. Most of those articles just glaze over the real decisions....and typically start with the assumption that everyone wants to spend $2,500 on the Ireland Engineering 3.0 stroker kit.

You are a big proponent that each different person should make the performance choices that matter to each person's specific application. This thread specifically would not have been addressed in many of the M20 stroker articles. I have yet to see any of those articles recommend that one stay with the stock 323i head, and to forgo porting, gasket matching, and bigger valves and springs. They all assume that you want a high reving track engine.

I realize that you are always on the "give" part of this board, and the people like me are mostly on the "take". I can see how that can get tedious. I dont think anyone's intention is to be spoon fed.....especially if they are Do-it-yourselfers.

However, it is typically the stuff that is "written between the lines" that matters most. It is typically the small "how to details" that matter most.

Your help is, and has always been greatly appreciated. If you know of an article that covers the real decisions....please point me to it. You dont have to spoon feed me. I would rather read something comprehensive, than to do it bit by bit by posting threads.

Again...I am yet to find an M20 stroker article that doesnt glaze over the decisions spoken about in this thread.....or that doesnt automatically assume you want a Super ETA or Ireland Stroker Kit.

JJG323   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 2:35am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 543
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Ray has helped my alot. So first off thanks.

Basically MayanArch we have talked about this before but since we all love these cars and want them fast, I will mention it all over again.

Before you do anything you have to ask yourself this one question: HP costs - how fast do you want to go. If you have the money Metric Mechanic does sell a complete 2.9 liter strokers using either the 200 or 885 head.

Or you can drop a m50 24v 2.5 liter into your 323i, and use the stock tranny. However I dont like that option, so here is your choice.

Buy a stroker. Or Build one. I bought a whole 2.8 liter 89 325i block that was already built by R and L engines and raced by Tyler of Baviarian. The only change I am making is I am using the 524td crank and I have Knife Edged it . I also found a nice 885 head.

If you build one, the most cost effective way is to use the 323i existing head with the 2.7 liter eta block. This is akin to using a 200 head.
This is mentioned by Jack Roberts on Arnies old site which is still on the internet...in Great Detail. The link is somewhere I will look for it.

http://www.e21bmw.net/graymarket/library/327i.php


goes into this exact swap, and also Brandon's super eta stroker. Also there is a link for the other swap (325i) that I will discuss in a minute.

Or you can build a more optimum stroker. This is really a 2.8 or 2.9 liter with *885* late model head and better flowing 325i manifold.

They way to do this is like so: Find a complete 2.5 liter 90 325i with 885 head. Port and Polish the head, use a more radical cam like a 288 degree cam if you are not running Motronic. If you run Motronic you need a 272 degree cam according to Tyler at bav auto.

Next bore out the block with Metric Mechanic 'I" style forged pistons. Metric Mechanic also has the eta crank, but in my car I am going to run the 524td one.

The Kit of 3.0 liter that Ireland offers is based on the e36 m crank. It can be done, but its a lot of money and work.

By the way Metric Mechanic offers the 3.0 engine, but its a closely quarded secret.
They do sell it.

So thats really about it....
later,
J

BruceH   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 2:52am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 460
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
There are check book mechanics and wrench mechanics.

Mayan - Forget other peoples opinions. I have said this before, decide what is right for you.


RDAvena   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 3:22am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1127
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
MayanArch wrote:

However, it is typically the stuff that is \"written between the lines\" that matters most. It is typically the small \"how to details\" that matter most.


could be summed up as a long day. Prob after a canned porkchop or two the real Ray will come out and answer as much as he can. Don't get me wrong and my intention was not to say or imply you are or have been a niusance. I will make the effort to at least give an answer instead of hinting you should look for one.

RDAvena   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 3:24am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1128
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
JJG323 wrote:

By the way Metric Mechanic offers the 3.0 engine, but its a closely quarded secret.
They do sell it.
J


Just like their huge secret about their 75% lock up diffs and that was an easy one to figure out.

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 3:54am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 293
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
RDAvena wrote:
MayanArch wrote:

However, it is typically the stuff that is \\\"written between the lines\\\" that matters most. It is typically the small \\\"how to details\\\" that matter most.


could be summed up as a long day. Prob after a canned porkchop or two the real Ray will come out and answer as much as he can. Don\'t get me wrong and my intention was not to say or imply you are or have been a niusance. I will make the effort to at least give an answer instead of hinting you should look for one.


All the pork you can eat...on me...if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you.

I know that wasnt your intention....but I fully understand your point. I dont want you to rewrite what others have written. That sucks for you. If it has been documented....a link makes me jump for joy....and is more than enough to get me going in the right direction.

Unfortunatly, most of these stroker pages are "check book mechanic" stuff documenting how they sent the part here for $1000...a part there for $800....and the summary page of total "check book" damage of $10K. Thats right up there with making a web page of how much you spent on your vacation.

If you have something that really documents the meat and bones....I will jump for joy to read it every time.

I didnt take up Mayan Archeology and Architecture because of a hate for reading....THATS TEDIOUS READING!!

RDAvena   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 5:49am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1129
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
a canned porkchop is a beer

and while it would be good to do a F.A.Q. on the stroker subject it just depends with all of the flavors out there. Some prefer to deck the block others shave the head. Some use the 2.5l head others use the 731. Some use motronic others use Kjet ect. I'll let you know. Or IM me with one specific question a day. While I am not the expert I can at least give you an 80% answer.


modifiede30   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 3:32pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 14

MA
1990 327i
There are much less expensive ways to build a stroker than buying a kit. And sending parts here and there shouldn't alarm you - just find a good machinist that knows what they're doing and talk to them about your plans - they should give you good info on what needs to be done. Just make sure you trust them so it helps if you know someone already.

When I built mine, I had all engine components reconditioned for $800 (rods, pistons, pins, block, head, crank, etc). The real cost is typically the amount of time you're willing to spend yourself, and replacing old or worn engine components, such as bearings and valve train components. I'm a firm believer that if you're going to go to all the trouble of building an engine, you should do it completely so that it doesn't need to be redone after 20K miles.

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Mar 15th 3:33pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 294
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
RDAvena wrote:
a canned porkchop is a beer


Never heard that....but the offer stands......all you can DRINK.

MayanArch   Posted Wednesday, Mar 16th 2:21am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 295
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
modifiede30 wrote:
There are much less expensive ways to build a stroker than buying a kit. And sending parts here and there shouldn\'t alarm you - just find a good machinist that knows what they\'re doing and talk to them about your plans - they should give you good info on what needs to be done.


Actually, I am all for that....I was refering to a web page of people who just sent off parts to a bunch of performance places for the all round highest ticket dollar amount possible. They just went for all the cliche upgrades.

I am confident I can find a pretty good mechanic here in Miami that will do the real talent and experience work, while I do all the grunt work.


Max   Posted Thursday, Mar 17th 3:42am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 169
   
OC, CA, USA
85 635CSi euro, 89 325iA
Let me add from my experience:

1)You won't feel any difference in using "200" head vs "731" head, I've used both on the same motor.Make sure you have the matching intake and TB.
2)All high revving "200" heads are exactly the same cast as ETA heads but they use 7 bearings and have different valve springs + cam.
3) It takes 10 minutes to convert ETA head to E21 323i head using a drill and common sense.
4) none of the 323i's used double valve springs, they used single springs but stronger then the ETA ones. IF you use ETA springs you want to add inner springs ( outer ETA springs are the same as outer 325i springs).
5) Late SuperETA head is the same as 325i head with casting "885" but has the same difference as early head ( 4 bearings used, weaker springs, cam)

Finally you don't want to use 325i cam in 323i head , ask me how I know...You can use 325i inner springs with eta outer springs if you want.

Oh yeah, piston clearance on US ETA motor let you just put 2.3 head in there, you will have ETA CR of 9:1.
I have e21 323 head in my garage with all the stuff if anyone's interested. no need for it anymore cause I sold everything except my 635Csi

Max

modifiede30   Posted Thursday, Mar 17th 2:22pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 15

MA
1990 327i
The super eta head I have uses all 7 bearing journals. Not sure if it was modified when I pulled it but suspect not since it came from an 88' 528e automatic that had absolutely no modifications. I've never heard anywhere that the super eta heads only used 4 bearings.

RDAvena   Posted Thursday, Mar 17th 6:11pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
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Post nr. 1133
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
Max wrote:
Let me add from my experience:
2)All high revving \"200\" heads are exactly the same cast as ETA heads but they use 7 bearings and have different valve springs + cam.
4) none of the 323i\'s used double valve springs, they used single springs but stronger then the ETA ones. IF you use ETA springs you want to add inner springs ( outer ETA springs are the same as outer 325i springs).
Max


Just to clear the air before rumors start. The 325i, 323i, 325e, and 528e all used the same part number for a valve spring-11341706583. The only engine listed with a different valve spring number is the e21 323i and this is part number-11341278066.

The inner helper spring is listed on the 325i 11341706584. After 1985 the e30 323i was listed as having the dual valve spring option. Same inner spring part number as the 325i.

All "super etas" had the seven cam bearings stock but only show one valve spring which is the same part number as all of the other M20 outer valve springs except the e21 323i. Regular eta engines before 9/1986 had the four cam bearing heads.

g323   Posted Friday, Jan 2nd 4:00am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 328
   
California
323i 1982
For everyone running 731 head on an eta block with K-jet, are you getting better gas mileage than with the stock 323i motor?

MayanArch   Posted Thursday, Oct 8th 12:11am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1607
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
I am finally getting my 323i head and 2.7 block setup where I want it, and I am very happy with it. It has the growl of the 323, but the low end torque of an eta.

I am really happy with it. I dont like how soft and civilized the e30 setup feels.


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