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Posted
Saturday, Oct 15th 10:48pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 453
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So I'm rebuilding a M52TU double VANOS head and curiosity strikes me....I know that the bore spacing is the same between the m20 and m50, but how close is everything else? So I take the old head gasket and put it on an m20 I have laying around. Everything lines up except the oil passages on the exhaust of the block. The Steam holes are even in the same spot. So I proceed to lay the head on the block too. It fits on there perfectly except the water jacket on the intake side of the head has an extra outlet, which that can made to work....I'm not sure what the point of all of this is but it IS interesting to me
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Posted
Saturday, Oct 15th 11:00pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 965
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Well, I will be..
That would be something if you could get that to work!!!
This is a hot topic, as the DHOC for the m20 was scrapped and never made it into production.
Let us know how u make out.
I did not know it was even a remote possiblity.
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Posted
Saturday, Oct 15th 11:02pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 454
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the "fun" part will be making the timing chain setup work...I think the "easiest" way to accomplish this maddness will be to start with a non VANOS M50 head for now |
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Posted
Monday, Oct 17th 10:15pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 373
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Hi M320i, I've done exactly the same thing as YOU!
I put the M50 head/gasket onto an M20 gasket/block just "to see".
At first I was very negative and then when I had a little rethink I thought anything is possible with enough ingenuity, time , effort money and guts.
A 4 valve M20, with a distributor drive and K jet/plunger pump FI! The "S20" that never made it!
I wonder what could be done about the chain/belt drives.... |
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Posted
Monday, Oct 17th 11:53pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 586
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OMG that would be just great! Yeah like an S20. Would be a great engine! Let's do it, just needs some reaserch! |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 1:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 462
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I'm doin the research as we speak....its great having all of these parts to play with in my spare time...
for the timing chain...you can use the M50 cranks on the m20...so you should be able to take the timing chain sprocket off on an m50 and put on a m20...if that fails, just use the whole M50 crank. Custom timing covers will probably have to be used....unless we can make the M50 ones work. The only problem is that the oil pan on an M50 extends past the block to seal against the timing cover...too bad the bolt pattern betwen the 2 isnt the same.
My idea for the timing cover would be to have some custom front covers made, and instead of changing the oil pan, just have a big return line on the bottom of the cover that threads into the front of the oil pan.
Another problem is with the water pump. On an M50 the pump has been moved to right side of the block as not be in the way of the timing chain. The Easiest thing to do would be to put a blank plate over the water mount, and run a remote Electric water pump.
So other than modifying the oil returns on the block....it shouldnt be THAT hard...
S22....
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 2:54am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 968
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How much HP and torque are we talking about.
I take it this will fit in our e21s?
Cool. |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 5:24am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 463
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well, since the bore/stroke and capactity will be the same as to an M50/S50; and you'll have the same head flow, you're numbers should almost match that of the M50 family...Or exceed if you use the Motorsport parts on the "S" family of engines......
So theoretically you could acheive the same Numbers in HP and Torque as the eurospec S54 in the E46 M3 343hp
Oh and how will it look in the E21 engine bay....
This was a custom job from KormanAutoworks a Turbo M50 E21 |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 7:19am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 574
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As much as I'm a fan of oldschool tech this still seems like a LOT of work!
Why not adapt an M50 non-vanos head to use a timing belt? Sure, belts have their problems but it might make things a little easier. I know other belt lengths and dimensions are available and this could elimnate some of the more difficult stuff about using a chain. The most difficult part would probably be creating some sort of oil seal area at the end of the cylinder head- I bet the end of the head could be machined flat and a simple aluminum plate with a cam seal (or two?) could be bolted on. It could be made thick enough to support extra tension rollers like a volvo or VW engine that uses a belt. A pair of M20 upper crank pulleys could be used so that both cams would be driven.
I'll have to look at some engines at work to see if any of what I said is truly possible.
jamie |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 7:59am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 464
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its more work in my opinion to adapt the head for a belt. There is no upper timing cover on the M50/M52 engines, the cover is cast into the head, so converting to a belt would envolve cutting the front off of the head, and then making a new flat cover like you mentioned, the problem with this would be finding a spot to bolt the plate to, there are ALOT of channels and thin walls inside of these heads. Also I dont think that there is a place on the end of the cam adequate to properly seal with an oil seal. So that would mean custom cams...alot of custom head work all for a belt....
Another idea to seal the front however would be to simply make a flat plate that would bolt to the front of the block that has the same pattern as the front of an M50 so you can use the factory timing covers, and then just cap off the bottom and run a drain line to the pan. I'm not even sure if that would work...I gotta look at the front of the M52TU at work tomorrow |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 8:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 587
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Will all of these work be cheaper than fitting a whole M50? Or at least will it give more power? Hmmmm..... |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 12:08pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 422
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well here in OZ at least, it would mean that you would not have to meet the later M52 emissions regulations- also because the motor is technically an M20 it's very easy to register... ie. your engine number matches so who's to know 
Also, many of our racing classes specify a stock block must be used, but heads are often open.... thus your e21 racer would suddenly be much more competative!
There's two advantages I guess! |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 5:41pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 466
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Those 2 advantages are well worth it, personally I would rather just drop an M50......or an All Aluminum M52TU which weighs in LESS than the M20
Another advantage..or reason to do this would be You'd be the only guy on the block with a 24V DOHC M20 (or S20) with K Jet and a dizzy |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 6:43pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 626
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Jeez I like the way that M50 looks in the engine bay. How much are these engines(M50, M52, M52TU) in the junkyard?
The M52TU sounds particularily nice, HP numbers? |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 7:00pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 969
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| bmw_m_320i wrote: | Those 2 advantages are well worth it, personally I would rather just drop an M50......or an All Aluminum M52TU which weighs in LESS than the M20
Another advantage..or reason to do this would be You'd be the only guy on the block with a 24V DOHC M20 (or S20) with K Jet and a dizzy |
Yes. I have seen a 323i with a 24v DOHC 2.5 stuffed in it, in person at the Bav Auto show. Its yellow, I have the pictures and I can post them. He hacked up the front radiator support. The 323i tranny also meets the m50 at a strange angle.
He also cracked a top part of the engine bay, he said it was from the stress of the motor in the 323i. I asked of course about the 36 m3 3.0 liter, and he said "I dont know if the chasis can handle it."
For all the complications of putting the m50 into the 323i, and expense thats why I am first bulding a m20 stroker. I am curious about how the m20 block and M52 head work together, but most likely in a few years i will have a m20 turbo going on in my car.
later,
J |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 7:44pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 575
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Hey Joe, I'm not knocking that guy as a mechanic but that was not a very clean swap. Using the late style E21 body with the core support cutaway, an electric pusher fan in front of the radiator and the E36 transmission (with chopper wheel for speedo) you could make this a very clean swap that wouldn't be any harder on the chassis than an m30. I really wouldn't want to use an E21 tranny anyway, considering E36 ones are far more plentiful and are designed to handle the output of an M50.
The M52TU makes around 200 hp stock. Using mostly bolt-ons can improve that quite a bit- a quiet easily streetable 250hp should be possible without too much work. If you're willing to go all-out a euro M3 engine can make will over 300 hp with a little less weight than an M30 and (theoretically) better balance. I don't know if this plays out in the real world or not!
Does anyone have hard numbers on the difference in weight between the cast iron and aluminum block M52's?
jamie |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 8:06pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 467
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HP numbers...
M50
2.0l 150hp
2.5l 192hp
M52
2.5l 170hp (323i)
2.8l 193hp
M54
2.2l 170hp (320i)
2.5l 192hp
3.0l 231hp
S50
3.0 286-295 (US Spec 240
3.2 321
S54 343hp
S54 360hp (M3CSL)
Theres some weight figures for you...The cast iron M50/S50 engines weigh about the same as the M30....and the Alloy M52TU/M54's weigh in just under an M20! The only problem is, if you overheat the alloy block ONE good time....you're looking at a new engine. I've got one in right now that was pegged in the red for 15mins doin 80mph and it cracked the block, but not the head, and the threads in the block would not retorque...which this is very common on the alloy M52's if you get em that hot
| Marquis_Rex wrote: | Early M30=192 kgs, later on 210 kgs (probably due to ancilliaries) [423 lbs and 462 lbs]
M20= 175 kgs/385 lbs
Alloy block BMW M52 160 kgs (dry) 170 kgs 'wet'- including flywheel
S50 euro spec M3 engine = 225 kgs/ 496 lbs!
S38 kgs 225 kgs!/496 lbs
(see what happens when you start to pile on dual vanos, and other complex systems- weight rockets to big six proportions!)
S70 (single cam version)=228 kgs-502lbs (includes 10.7 kg flywheel)
Here you see the V12 isn't all that heavy, but it must be borne in mind that a lot of this is due to close bore centres, alloy construction and only applies to the single cam model ( with head geometry similar to the M40s)
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 9:11pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 588
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"Another advantage..or reason to do this would be You'd be the only guy on the block with a 24V DOHC M20 (or S20) with K Jet and a dizzy"
 S20 Now that's something! |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 9:24pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 374
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A HUGE advantage I can see of having a 4 valve engine over a 2 valve (not advocating the 4 valve M20 vs the M50 exactly) is that when you TRY to get high HP/litre numbers out of a 2 valve it becomes more peaky that doing the same out of a 24 valver.
For example, i've been trying to design my own cam for my SOHC M20 3.1 litre, to try to get around 260 Bhp. However in all the flow cycle simulation runs i've done I keep zeroeing in on around 295 duration! I minimise the overlap and am going for my typical "marquis trademark" late IVC and rapid velocity profiles (goes through zero entrainment or sliding velocity very quickly to minimise friction and wear) but find that I'm getting a peaky beast with peak torque around 5500 rpm plus and peak power only at around 6500 rpm.
A 4 valver wouldn't have that problem and you could have similar HP/litre if not more AND a broader torque curve....
And that's BEFORE you get into the combustion efficiency benefits of a pent roof-central plug combustion chamber. |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 9:57pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 576
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So...what if we use the M52 aluminum short block and adapt an M10/M30 distributor drive gear to sit at one end of the head?
jamie |
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Posted
Tuesday, Oct 18th 10:01pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 468
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whats the dizzy going to drive off of? the only thing I could think to do would be to use a Motronic DIS setup like the M30/M20 S38/S14 engines used. The only problem with that is you cant adjust the timing. |
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Posted
Wednesday, Oct 19th 8:33am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 1
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I am just building my e21 with a M54 3.0 engine from Z4. here some pictures
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/himizolika/my_photos
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Posted
Wednesday, Oct 19th 7:28pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 471
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what are you doing about the fly by wire throttle? and the EWS system? |
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Posted
Friday, Oct 21st 8:03pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] |
Post nr. 4
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The electronic trottle is not a problem, very simple system. The EWS also not so big deal, my ECU is unprogramed because i bought the engine from Alpina. Anyway I am an electrical engineer 
I more affraid how the 231HP will handle the transmission and the LSD.... |
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