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Tech Forum : M20 throttle bodies

- BMW E21 Community
   - Tech Forum
      - M20 throttle bodies
Jason_323i   Posted Tuesday, Feb 28th 11:53pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 349
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi guys

I just thought I would share these pics with you, I had a custom manifold made up to take some e36 m3 throttle bodies to an m20 head, basically an expensive process but I am looking into the feasibility of using it to get some more cast.

I hope the use of the throttle bodies with save me hassle as the came with the fuel rail, injectors, linkages, and fittings for the aux air valve. The hole lot has cost about £1000.00

Jason















BruceH   Posted Tuesday, Feb 28th 11:59pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 835
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Well done!

bmw_m_320i   Posted Wednesday, Mar 1st 1:05am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 569
   
Helena, Montana
none right now :(
Nice! its about time someone did that

kpeters   Posted Wednesday, Mar 1st 1:14am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 696
   
San Jose, Costa Rica
1981 320/6 Kastanienrot-Metallic 5spd
Gratz! beautiful.

RDAvena   Posted Wednesday, Mar 1st 1:41am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 1593
   
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
1981 323i, 1988 545is, 1997 528i
sweet.

Yours will still probably be a lot cheaper than the German DBilas set up. Or the ones sold by bee em pee wich are repackaged DBlias. Let me know if you ever go into full blown production. I would like to buy one.

JJG323   Posted Wednesday, Mar 1st 1:56am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1140
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
RDAvena wrote:
sweet.

Yours will still probably be a lot cheaper than the German DBlias set up. Or the ones sold by bee em pee wich are repackaged DBlias. Let me know if you ever go into full blown production. I would like to buy one.

Ditto

Jason_323i   Posted Wednesday, Mar 1st 10:30pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 350
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi

I have spoke to my fabricator and a I could do a batch for £750 each, but to get the cost down you would have to run an independant engine breather, and the manifold would be longer.

Jason

M42powered   Posted Wednesday, Mar 1st 10:30pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Staff
Post nr. 621
   
Arizona, USA
1981 BMW 320i
Those are some sexy TIG welds. Kudos.

Madhatter   Posted Friday, Mar 3rd 7:20pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 18

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30
how much did the throttles actually set you back?

Jason_323i   Posted Friday, Mar 3rd 9:16pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 351
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi

I picked the bodies up for £100.00

Jason

davethedog   Posted Friday, Mar 3rd 9:58pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 54
   
Northants, England
E21 320
Hi jason, good work just what I always wanted. Put my name down for a set.

Madhatter   Posted Saturday, Mar 4th 9:27am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 19

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30
damn, where were you looking when you found them for 100 pound?

JJG323   Posted Tuesday, Jun 13th 5:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1226
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Jason did this ever go into to production.
I want a set of these....please

Tricord   Posted Tuesday, Jun 13th 8:34pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Administrator
Post nr. 960
   
Belgium, Europe
323i Baur
It's wonderfully done! Even the crankcase breather connection has been handled beautifully!

I'd say I'd want one as well, however it'll cost me about as much as half of the entire car so far But there seems to be a lot of interest around, which is good!

What else do you need besides the manifold and the throttle bodies (I'm thinking ECU, injection system, AFM?)

Tricord   Posted Tuesday, Aug 8th 2:12pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Administrator
Post nr. 976
   
Belgium, Europe
323i Baur
Any news on this? I'd love to hear the rest of the story

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Aug 8th 4:40pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1109
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Will these work with a 200 head casting too? What else do you have to change to have a turnkey system?

Dont all those throttle bodies need more air than a single intake?




cnvkellogg   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 6:10am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 32
   
Eugene, OR
78 320i
Im with everyone here! Nice Job and I want one too. I have been drolling over turbo setups and stand alone fuel managment systems.

More Power Please...

imaradiostar   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 8:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 843
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
MayanArch wrote:
Will these work with a 200 head casting too?


Yes but not really any gain to be had there- this kind of system is best used with a head/cam/porting/displacement combo that can take advantage of the added flow.

As for a turnkey system- the dbilas kit plus stock motronic would run but it certainly wouldn't be ideal. I'm pretty sure the dbilas kits come with a chip for the stock ECU. An ideal system would be Motec or VEMS or some other highly tunable standalone injection system that could be tweaked to take advantage of changes you might make.

Don't underestimate carburators and CIS fuel injection when it comes to ease of tuning! I'd still like to see someone use ITB's and CIS, just to see that it's been done.

jamie

Jason_323i   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 9:45am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 402
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi

For an update I have had my car back on the road for 3 weeks after a year and a half in storage, but have blown the diff seals, got an gearbox rear seal oil leak, leaky damper and blown a drive shaft all in the first week off having it back on the road, there are also a lot of black number 11's around the country roads were i live. Also i forgot the sound, I can normally set a few car alarms off when i pull into the supermarket car park.

For the throttle body conversion I have ordered a VEMS kit, I need to drop my S/S six branch of to get a pair of lambda sensors mounted, and go to the scrap yard to pick up a complete late motronic harness & toothed wheel. Then I can start to put it together.

Jason

MayanArch   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 7:34pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1113
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
imaradiostar wrote:
MayanArch wrote:
Will these work with a 200 head casting too?


Yes but not really any gain to be had there- this kind of system is best used with a head/cam/porting/displacement combo that can take advantage of the added flow.

As for a turnkey system- the dbilas kit plus stock motronic would run but it certainly wouldn't be ideal. I'm pretty sure the dbilas kits come with a chip for the stock ECU. An ideal system would be Motec or VEMS or some other highly tunable standalone injection system that could be tweaked to take advantage of changes you might make.

Don't underestimate carburators and CIS fuel injection when it comes to ease of tuning! I'd still like to see someone use ITB's and CIS, just to see that it's been done.

jamie


I dont understand why this precludes any of that. From what I see this setup is just a switch from single to dedicated throttle bodies that are synchronized mechanically. Beyond that, it seems that BMP has some collector between the air intake and the throttle.

Shouldnt you be able to add any engine management to this system? All you are doing is controlling the firing of the injectors, right..............and the injectors seem to be stock E36 injectors.

QUESTION: do all throttle bodies open and close at the same time here? Isnt that counter to firing sequence?

Jason_323i   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 8:31pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 403
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi

The BMP system will work with a stock motroninc, it would be the same effect as putting a bigger throttle body on, only you are paying a lot for it. The m3 setup still has an air box and a maf sensor, and makes over 100bhp per litre.

The stock intake limistpower to about 210 thats as far as alpina got with the m20, going to itb's increase the potential of the engine.

Jason

MayanArch   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 9:10pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1114
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Jason_323i wrote:
Hi

The BMP system will work with a stock motroninc, it would be the same effect as putting a bigger throttle body on, only you are paying a lot for it. The m3 setup still has an air box and a maf sensor, and makes over 100bhp per litre.

The stock intake limistpower to about 210 thats as far as alpina got with the m20, going to itb's increase the potential of the engine.

Jason


I wouldnt leave a stock motronic. My point was that this new setup shouldnt preclude using any injection controll system.

In the end, all of these aftermarket injection systems use the stock throttle body anyhow. All you are really doing here is upgrading the throttle body. You should be able to use any of the "tunnable" injection systems out there.............theoretically.

cnvkellogg   Posted Wednesday, Aug 9th 9:29pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 33
   
Eugene, OR
78 320i
Don't forget that this set up does have a "cool" factor. Might not make a zillion horse power but when you look under the hood someone's bound to say "WOW, COOL INTAKE" .

velocewest   Posted Thursday, Aug 10th 12:16am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 529
   
Oregon USA
e9, e12x2, no E21?
MayanArch wrote:

QUESTION: do all throttle bodies open and close at the same time here? Isnt that counter to firing sequence?


Multiple throttle plates are always synched -- e.g., twin and triple sidedrafts. The opening of the valves happens so fast that it doesn't make any sense to try to somehow tie throttle plate opening to valve opening sequence. Think about it -- at 800 RPM idle, each cylinder goes through a combustion cycle 400 times each minute, i.e., each valve opens 400 times each minute. And it only gets faster!

MayanArch   Posted Thursday, Aug 10th 3:42am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1116
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
velocewest wrote:
MayanArch wrote:

QUESTION: do all throttle bodies open and close at the same time here? Isnt that counter to firing sequence?


Multiple throttle plates are always synched -- e.g., twin and triple sidedrafts. The opening of the valves happens so fast that it doesn't make any sense to try to somehow tie throttle plate opening to valve opening sequence. Think about it -- at 800 RPM idle, each cylinder goes through a combustion cycle 400 times each minute, i.e., each valve opens 400 times each minute. And it only gets faster!


Isnt forced induction timed to the valve timing?

velocewest   Posted Thursday, Aug 10th 3:47am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 530
   
Oregon USA
e9, e12x2, no E21?
MayanArch wrote:

Isnt forced induction timed to the valve timing?


Not in any way I can think of. Most forced induction systems are pumping through the original throttle and intake track. Same air path, just pressurized.

Tony

velocewest   Posted Thursday, Aug 10th 4:02am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 532
   
Oregon USA
e9, e12x2, no E21?
imaradiostar wrote:

Don't underestimate carburators and CIS fuel injection when it comes to ease of tuning! I'd still like to see someone use ITB's and CIS, just to see that it's been done.

jamie


BMW did it. The S38 engine in the M5, M6 et al uses ITB's and Motronic. The injectors fire in banks of 3. In other words, you could run ITB's and Motronic from an e30 325is. Wouldn't be too hard to set up a MAF to relace the AFM in the intake, there are signal converters.

Tony

imaradiostar   Posted Thursday, Aug 10th 9:15am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 844
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
right...they used motronic and earlier mechanical pumps with ITB's but I've never seen CIS (K-jetronic) with ITB's. If you know of an example please share.

jamie

Marquis_Rex   Posted Thursday, Aug 10th 11:27am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 466
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
imaradiostar wrote:
right...they used motronic and earlier mechanical pumps with ITB's but I've never seen CIS (K-jetronic) with ITB's. If you know of an example please share.

jamie

I've been thinking about this alot of late.
The only application of K Jet and port throttles I know of is a racing Porsche 934 where they had to use CIS because this is what the production car used. I've heard it was much modified though.
To fully understand the potential issues of using K Jetronic with ITBs we must delve a little further into the calibration science of engines:
Not all of the fuel injected into the engine is immediately inducted into the engine.
When the engine is running steady state- or continually running with constant throttle position the cylinder air charge for each cylinder is roughly constant and the fuel transport mechanism from injector to cylinder are roughly in equilibrium. Here the mass of fuel inducted is equal to the mass of fuel injected.
However during transients or "fast tip-ins"-which is what we're concerned with (-and constitutes ALOT of typical enthusiasts driving style-) the inducted fuel is very different to what is injected. Not all of the fuel injected goes into the cylinder, some of it remains on the port walls to form a puddle. This puddle mass stays the same during steady state operation, but during transients, say, when the throttle is opened more, the pressure in the inlet manifold rises and so does the puddle mass (when the inlet manifold pressure goes down-the reverse occurs). This means some of the fueling is lost to the newer bigger puddle when you open the throttle more. THIS is what you have to compensate for-which is why you need extra fueling during fast "tip-in" transients.

With CIS the puddle mass will be big because fuel is continually being injected (i.e it's not sequential and timed).

With individual throttles per cylinder the response of the air entering the engine is much uch quicker as the throttle body is now close to the inlet valve. However the response of the fueling may lag, especially if a huge plenum box-as used on the Euro S50 M3 is used.
The conventional means that K Jetronic uses to compensate for transient mixture requirements is the vacuum line to the control pressure regulator and using "over swing" of the air mass sensor baffle. This later method isn't applicable if we use a huge plenum box (greater than 10 litres) as the sensor plate becomes too far away to effect the mixture at precisely the right time. Big plenums are nice however as they offer us more power and are one of the advantages of using ITBs....
We could move the injectors slightly closer to the inlet valve- this will reduce the puddle mass and therefore the amount of lean running on fast transients, but this will potentially intrude into our nice straight clean flow path into our engines- which will again effect power....
So the question is- will the transient fuel/mixture compensation offered by the vacuum line to the Control pressure regulator be enough and at the right time? And also - it's known that if we use a vacuum tapping now, closer to one of the port throttles-the pressure fluctuations this close to the cylinder will be savage and massive- will this cause probelms for the Control pressure regulator? Or will the volume in the vaccuum line and Control pressure reg. itself offer enough damping of these pulses?

As you can see, I haven't offered the above issue much thought- just a most brief superficial cursory glance
As always in engineering, it's a compromise and never simple.

jdench   Posted Friday, Aug 11th 1:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 80

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring
Sorry if this is foolish, but I just want to make sure I am thinking correctly

A large plenum chamber will provide more power, as a larger volume of air can pass through, but a small plenum chamber increases throttle response due to the smaller volume air within it at any one time.
But the relationship between the volume of the plenum and the positioning of the throttle bodies also changes the response time with regards to the throttle.
Also, could the inside of the chamber not be coated with something to reduce the pooling of petrol on the walls? Would, say, a teflon coating help reduce the volume, to enable a finer calibration of fuel/air?

MayanArch   Posted Friday, Aug 11th 5:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1117
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
jdench wrote:
Sorry if this is foolish, but I just want to make sure I am thinking correctly

A large plenum chamber will provide more power, as a larger volume of air can pass through, but a small plenum chamber increases throttle response due to the smaller volume air within it at any one time.
But the relationship between the volume of the plenum and the positioning of the throttle bodies also changes the response time with regards to the throttle.
Also, could the inside of the chamber not be coated with something to reduce the pooling of petrol on the walls? Would, say, a teflon coating help reduce the volume, to enable a finer calibration of fuel/air?


This is also a compromise. Texture to the walls causes corrugation that will collect liquid ..........but it also causes air turbulence that is somewhat desireable. People have gotten away from polishing ports to mirror finish becauseof that. However, any surface that is textured will collect moisture on its surface, and make it much harder for it to go away.

In the end, the liquid that clings to the surface doesnt move. It is the liquid that sits just on top of it what will move.......at a molecular level.

The answer here isnt surface treatment, but geometry. The angle of attack will obviously reduce pooling. The velocity of the gas will also reduce pooling. The increased speed as the diameter of the port decreases towards the valve helps increase velocity of the gas traveling through the port.

Gasget matching will obviously reduce dead spots where gas can collect and be imobile.

Smooth turns if the ports change direction are better than sudden turns which will create dead spots on the flow.

The answer is in geometry and port design. it isnt a matter of big or small. It is a question of where it is big, where it is small, and the angle of attack.

Tricord   Posted Friday, Aug 11th 1:50pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Administrator
Post nr. 983
   
Belgium, Europe
323i Baur
MayanArch wrote:
This is also a compromise. Texture to the walls causes corrugation that will collect liquid ..........but it also causes air turbulence that is somewhat desireable. People have gotten away from polishing ports to mirror finish becauseof that. However, any surface that is textured will collect moisture on its surface, and make it much harder for it to go away.

The engineer in me tells me a rough texture will increase the surface in mm≤, and hence will expose more moisture to air for evaporation. Much like the cooling fins on a radiator have a huge combined surface to maximize metal-to-air contact for heat transportation.

Of course, factors like adhesion and cohesion play their part.

Marquis_Rex   Posted Friday, Aug 11th 5:16pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 467
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
jdench wrote:
Sorry if this is foolish, but I just want to make sure I am thinking correctly

A large plenum chamber will provide more power, as a larger volume of air can pass through, but a small plenum chamber increases throttle response due to the smaller volume air within it at any one time.
But the relationship between the volume of the plenum and the positioning of the throttle bodies also changes the response time with regards to the throttle.
Also, could the inside of the chamber not be coated with something to reduce the pooling of petrol on the walls? Would, say, a teflon coating help reduce the volume, to enable a finer calibration of fuel/air?

You seem to have grasped the fundamentals of throttle response.
The pooling/puddle mass is no big deal, it doesn't increase fuel consumption as eventually the fuel WILL get ingested and burned in the engine under some condition. If the calibration is correct the puddle is hardly an issue. For us after market folks- I was merely making people aware of it. The puddle mass can be reduced by bringing the injectors closer or aiming them differently- if they're already far from optimal.Far better to use coatings to reduce wall friction- The Porsche 928 GT did this in the early to mid nineties.
Even if there was a teflon coating of some kind, it would barely reduce the puddle mass because the mass is gathering up - not due to stiction at the walls and by 15000 miles, the manifold walls would no longer be "non-stick".
During fast transients- the puddle mass volume isn't the issue, but more, the CHANGE in puddle mass- which will effect how much fuel actually reaches the cylinder.
I've heard alot of folk, esp after market folk talk of surface turbulence coatings and to not reccommend going super smooth on inlet ports and manifolds. Well BMW machine their chambers and ports super smooth , on M cars and the new valvetronic E90 330i. Formula 1 engines I've seen are also machined super smooth, except for the short side radius where dimples are placed. The ports are machined smooth to reduce friction and lower the reynolds number, so that the velocity gradient across the cross section of the flow is more consistent, they're also done this way to minimise port to port variation. The dimpled section on F1 ports at the short side radius is done to keep the flow attatched to the lower wall and thus lower the flow recirculation zone at high speeds. I know alot of tuners, and even Metric Mechanic don't reccomend mirror smooth finishes, as well as all the Smokey Yunicks of this world, but I'm sorry my moneys on BMW and the M division R and D.

MayanArch   Posted Saturday, Aug 12th 6:13pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1119
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
How do these similar systems that have an open trumpet to the air.........and no air box........prevent from anything flying into the engine.

I saw an engine yesterday where there was 3 inches between the throttle valve and open air. It looked nice with 8 polished trumpets...........but I cant see how this doesnt give problems.

jdench   Posted Saturday, Aug 12th 6:20pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 81

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring
reynolds number, that brings back A level Physics flashbacks!

MayanArch   Posted Saturday, Aug 12th 8:56pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1120
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
jdench wrote:
reynolds number, that brings back A level Physics flashbacks!


Yes, please refrain from throwing around the engineering terms. Us architects go into featal position when made to think in numbers.

Rickysbmw320i   Posted Tuesday, Aug 22nd 9:44pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1

mn
83' 320i --> 83' e21
I am also intrested in that set up! im rebuilding a m20 and was hopeing i could find something like this. where in the world can i find the e36 m3 throttle botties at a cheap price?

Phasma   Posted Saturday, Sep 9th 2:28am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 69
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
yeah! Where can we buy it?

JJG323   Posted Saturday, Sep 9th 3:22am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1264
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
You cant really get this,-its a prototype unless you are ready to spend about 1k more.

Plus you need a standalone system like meagsquirt or autronic for it to run correctly. But I like it a lot better than the DIBLAS system or BMP's clone.

Jason please put these into production, we need them .

redmist   Posted Sunday, Sep 10th 5:37am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 951
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
Megasquirt II can fire off 3 pairs of injectors seperately and handle the ignition events with seperate coil packs, also has an onboard MAP sensor. Combine that with a T04E Turbo (rear mounted of course )36lb injectors and for about $1500 all in you have almost 300hp on a stock M20i motor.

JJG323   Posted Sunday, Sep 10th 6:57pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1266
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
redmist wrote:
Megasquirt II can fire off 3 pairs of injectors seperately and handle the ignition events with seperate coil packs, also has an onboard MAP sensor. Combine that with a T04E Turbo (rear mounted of course )36lb injectors and for about $1500 all in you have almost 300hp on a stock M20i motor.


OT: Yes Pete we could almost sticky another thread about the merits of a M20 turbo. I am finishing off the current build of my 2.8 m20 stroker with 10.5:1 CR, and other goodies, but I am convinced that turboing the m20 is the way to go.

I have the s50 crank already, s50 rods needed and build a 2.9 liter m20 turbo with a low compression ratio of *8.5:1. Then boost it. It should produce way over 300 HP.

Question Pete how hard is it to get Megasquirt II running? I have looked at the website and its all greek to me.

redmist   Posted Sunday, Sep 10th 11:15pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 953
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
Man you have some cool engines. The 2.9 blown will absolutely have over 300. Pretty good torque too!
I've been doing lots of research into MS.
I don't intend to build it just buy it ready made.
Basically you hook your existing sensors to it (TPS, temp, afm etc), fuel injectors and coil. Add any additional sensors you want (intake air temp) hook up the MAP and away you go.Makes sense at this point to convert to a six cylinder mustang MAF. Everything is programmable from a laptop. This is a gross oversimplification but it doesn't seem too bad.
I have yet another e30 coming on Sunday ($600) that I am going to try the MS on. Once I feel I can avoid something fatal I'm going to move it over to the black 325i turbo. Then the plan is to do something stupid with the $600 e30. (drag car - sequential turbos and nitrous)

e21 turbo   Posted Monday, Oct 16th 7:52pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 2


bmw e21
i think they would work just fine,my friend had an s14 throtle bodies to the m20b25 engine with alot of mods to:
shrick camshaft 304
mega squirt
hartege headers
and alot more,the car is just insane...

Jason_323i   Posted Monday, Oct 16th 11:51pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 410
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi

If you want more m20 megasquirt info check

www.e30zone.co.uk


or

www.e30tech.com

Jason

JJG323   Posted Tuesday, Oct 17th 7:22am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1276
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Jason

Will S50 throttle bodies work with your manifold?
I have been looking for them over here.

Jason_323i   Posted Tuesday, Oct 17th 3:06pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 411
   
UK, Scotland
323i 2.7 tripple webber track car. Maserati Biturbo
Hi

The manifold is designed to work with s52 throttle bodies, but if i was to do it again I would go with a modifed webber downdraft (of the shelf) or fabricated manifold to take motor bike throttle bodies, cheaper and easier to make.

Jason

Phasma   Posted Saturday, Jan 13th 2:50am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 72
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
Dont want to spoil somebodys business, but I made my own interpretation of S52-to-M20 throttle body adapter! And it was came out much cheaper but not worse!

costs:
aluminium bar 1m - 16 bucks
machine ports - 30 bucks
leveling orig. mani. surface - 10 bucks
weld everything together - 120 bucks
level both contact surfaces - 20 bucks
make bolt threads - ? (not done yet)

all other jobs (like saw off original manifold, make port/hole patern on paper and later on aluminium bar, grind and polish ports after welding) could be done by YOURSELF!

Here are the picture right after welding. I could post pictures after port grinding if anybody interested


And as You can see, I left original fuelrail holders for another set of injectors just to experiment with injector location (original place or distant)

JJG323   Posted Saturday, Jan 13th 8:03am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1298
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Ok,
So did you modify the s50 manifold and basically just cut it down to fit??

Phasma   Posted Saturday, Jan 13th 11:31am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 73
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
S52 throttle bodies stays unchanged.
I cuted off only the M20 intake manifold attachment plate with 5cm of tube and left fuelrail holders in slight different angle.

No idea about clearances in E21 motorbay, cos I pulled my engine and tranny out for upgrades!

rs4pro3   Posted Wednesday, Feb 7th 5:55pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 6


Great work, just wondering what length runners are you using?

I'm working on my own DIY ITB setup, but using bike throttles, I have the throttles all spaced out and linked together and have just started to figure out the plenum

Phasma   Posted Saturday, Apr 7th 12:25am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 98
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
Damn! Just dropped rebuilt engine in and at first, tried on the throttle assembly!

Damn brake vacuum booster spoils all!

Any ideas??? Alternatives?

Boost_me   Posted Saturday, Apr 7th 3:41am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 183
   
Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i
Do you have a pic of the engine bay?? I mean with the engine their so we can see wht sort of clearance you need??? Is your car LHD or RHD??

Phasma   Posted Tuesday, Apr 10th 4:14pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 99
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
I will post pictures as soon as I get home from work!

I've got 80' LHD Euro 323i with 2.9 DIY stroker (88mm stroke), 288 schrick, adj. fuel press. regulator, Alpina C2 2.7 chip, dogleg box and 3.91 LSD! No idea, how it runs

As it seems to me, the stock brake vacuum booster should go at all, and meybe master cylinder too, if I decide to run it with stock M3 intake manifold!

Phasma   Posted Saturday, Apr 14th 7:20pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 101
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
Phasma wrote:
No idea, how it runs


Took my precious for a testdrive - few laps around the block!

Guys, this thing kicks hard!

JJG323   Posted Saturday, Apr 14th 8:48pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1320
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
Phasma wrote:
Phasma wrote:
No idea, how it runs


Took my precious for a testdrive - few laps around the block!

Guys, this thing kicks hard!


I would like to see pics of the engine and manifold.
Did you use an s50 one? Also what year BMW is the crank and rods from...and do you have big enough injectors for the engine?

Phasma   Posted Wednesday, Apr 25th 4:10pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 103
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
JJG323 wrote:


I would like to see pics of the engine and manifold.
Did you use an s50 one? Also what year BMW is the crank and rods from...and do you have big enough injectors for the engine?


I use M57D30 2001' crank, 130mm rods, machined M20B25 pistons, schrick 288 cam and M52B25 injectors.

The throttle I'm trying to use is from S52B32.
Sorry for delay, I will post the pictures as soon as I get home (you know, work==>garage==>work mode).

Phasma   Posted Saturday, Jun 16th 11:22pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 106
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
Finaly, here are some pics. I tried to show fitting and clearance issues:










JJG323   Posted Sunday, Jun 17th 8:03am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1325
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
interesting..how did you get it to work near the brake bolster at the closest part of the head..by the windsheild.

Phasma   Posted Sunday, Jun 17th 11:40pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 107
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
as a matter of fact, i didn't
Just showing the need of brake booster removal or even remote master brake cylinder.

You can see in first picture, that throttle cable lever diches right into brake booster and I even was unable to slip assembly completely on studs. I couldn't lower it in correct angle because of brake booster.

Other problem is thermostat housing. Obviously it needs to be grinded or elsehow modified.

Rickysbmw320i   Posted Wednesday, Oct 24th 10:25am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1

mn
83' 320i --> 83' e21
any progress on this?

Phasma   Posted Monday, Nov 12th 9:23pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 108
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
patience!

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Nov 13th 3:46am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1447
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
What kind of filters are at the end of those intakes?

Phasma   Posted Wednesday, Nov 14th 2:31pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 110
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
I consider using six motorcycle filters in appropriate diameter.

Phasma   Posted Friday, Nov 5th 11:55am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 117
   
Latvia, EU
E21 323i "Phantom"
Sorry guys, been a long time since last post!

My car have been totally rebuilt since then and is dedicated exceptionaly for drag strip. So engine now is still M20 3.2l turbo with the same ITBs. I have removed brake booster and replaced with Wilwood pedal box.

You can watch rebuild process @ http://www.bmwpower.lv/member_gallery.php?gal_id=6034


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