General Forum : Interesting project...not bmw...

nsbone

Posted Saturday, Jun 17th 3:00pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 421

KL, Malaysia
e21 323/6 316, e34 520i, e32 730i

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2133988/1

davethedog

Posted Sunday, Jun 18th 12:32pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 107

Northants, England
E21 320

I have been thinking. If you can put an E36 M3 engine in an E21, How hard would it be to put an engine from one of these beasts in. I know it's not one for the purest but is it any worse than fitting a modern BM engine. It is still an inline 6 after all.

JJG323

Posted Sunday, Jun 18th 1:39pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 1233

Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i

davethedog wrote:

I asked about it. It can be done. But, you need all the electronics, the e36 tranny, to chop the e21 drive train, custom radiator, e36 headers, all that are a major expense.

I always though a euro e36 s50/s52 engine and 6 speed would be awesome in the e21.

But I cant afford to spend this kind of mola.
If you stroke the m20, with the s50 internals:
s50 rods and s50 crank, u get to a nice performing m20 for a fraction of the cost of converting the car to an e36 engine, and it looks period correct too. Then their always is an m20 turbo.

later,
J

bmw_m_320i

Posted Sunday, Jun 18th 1:54pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 670

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

one thing to keep in mind, the euro S50/S52 is about the same weight as an M30. Yes more power, but its gonna be nose heavy. Not quite as bad maybe, since its a little bit shorter than the M30

aussie323i

Posted Sunday, Jun 18th 2:27pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 501

australia
1979 323i

I think rahman was referring to the RB series nissan engines... I have seen an RB25 turbo (same physical size as an RB26 GTR engine, but 1 turbo instead of 2) fitted to an e30 and the fit is TIGHT!!

the thing to remember about our BMW engines is that they are actually incredibly compact for an inline 6... the RB series nissan is actually about 6 inches longer than an M20- so it's actually probably even a bit longer than an m30 engine... space at the front of the engine bay is a bit limited but it could fit.

I think one of the late nissan V6s would be an easier fit- though they could be too wide.

I think an e28 would probably be an easier fit for either engine.

davethedog

Posted Sunday, Jun 18th 3:19pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 108

Northants, England
E21 320

aussie323i wrote:

Thats answered that one then

imaradiostar

Posted Sunday, Jun 18th 10:33pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 782

Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i

My friend has a chevy V8 in an old Z-car- it's very low and as far back as possible. The crank pulley at the front is even with the front axles. His car corner weights 50% all around. I think the ideal E21 swap would be something similar- an ultra compact v6, for example. Get it as far down and back as possible.

The other option would be an SR20 or similar engine that has 4 valves/cyl and a turbo- and some serious power!

jamie

jdench

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 12:28pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 64

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring

What you want is an M70

or an s70, they actually weigh less than a S50/S52, and produce 326hp and 361 lbf.ft. of torque and you can have a nice V12 wail (twice as good as a straight six

) then you can supercharge it for 500hp! but you'd probably find the nearest solid object close to the road on a wet day

bmw_m_320i

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 5:06pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 671

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

I think about doing the same thing everytime I work on a 750il! The sound the engine produces is almost worth all of the trouble even if there wasnt a power gain

jdench

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 6:18pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 65

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring

It's good to know that there is at least one other person in the world who doesn't think i'm mad!
I have seen it done somewhere, but I can't remember where. If I find it, I will post a link.
Mmmmmm, 12 cylinders. drool.

bmw_m_320i

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 7:03pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 672

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

http://www.autopower.se/ovanligabmw/top10_350.asp

Is this where you saw it?

redmist

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 7:27pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 844

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

I can't believe someone would go to all that trouble and expense and have 2/3rds of the engine ahead of the front wheels.
BTW I finished the steering and firewall in the 357 LS1. Worked out really well. Next week I'm finishing the floor and pulling the engine/trans back out to paint the engine bay and interior.

imaradiostar

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 10:22pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 783

Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i

357...it's a good name, I think!

Are you going to use some sort of spray-on bedliner for the interior? I've always wanted to try this.

As for the V12- I rarely find one running on all 12 cylinders. Most of our customers are unwilling to spend the money to make them run correctly so I don't have a very good opinion of it. I'd much rather build a 357i with a chevy engine!

jamie

velocewest

Posted Monday, Jun 19th 11:56pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 520

Oregon USA
e9, e12x2, no E21?

The BMW v12 is a great engine saddled with crappy engine management. Dump the goofy dual Motronic system and get something simpler and more reliable. I don't see why you couldn't run Megasquirt.

Of course, it would still be way easier and cheaper to turbo an M30...

jdench

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 12:39am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 66

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring

It might have been, but I'm pretty sure it was in an e21. Weight distribution aside, I bet it sounds good (but I expect it would drink a lot) The dual Motronic is renowned for being a pain in the arse. 6 Dual webbers would be the way forward! (plus installing an extra petrol tank in the boot!)

bmw_m_320i

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 1:11am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 673

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

yeah I agree, the duel motronic give this engine a bad reputation! mechanically its a great engine. Megasquirt can support 12 cylinders and would be alot better than what it has, and easier to tune than 6 webber downdrafts! 6 webbers with 12 velocity stacks would look pretty sick though....would have that old school ferrari look

The engine was good enough to power the McLaren F1, which until recently was the worlds fastest production car. Though not in stock form, this version had 4 valves per cylinder, and increased to 6.2l, and used McLaren engine management.

aussie323i

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 12:05pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 505

australia
1979 323i

In Performance BMW recently there was an e30 with an s70 installed- apparently due to the low weight the handling was fine and not nose heavy at all (according to the article).... they also had an awesome 3 series shoot out between a 5.7L Gen III V8 e30, a cool turbo e30 M3 (which unfortunately rolled at the test!) a couple of other e30 M3s, a couple of e36s and an e46.

For us old school types there was a turbo e12 that was also pretty awesome.

Very cool issue.

redmist

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 8:28pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 845

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

Jamie,
Might do the bedliner thing but I heard the smell is horrible for 6 months to a year. With the exhaust heating the underside of the car it might even take longer to neutralize. Already bought the Gray Por-15 and primer which I was going to spray on.
I think the offical name is going to be "357 Magnum" too bad I'm not using a hemi.
Aussie where do you get "Performance BMW"?
Obviously I am very interested in the LS1 E30 and how it stacked up against the others.
Any chance you could PDF me the article?
Thanks
Pete

redmist

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 8:48pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 847

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

I checked out the JUNE performance bmw mag. The e30 is a 5.7 BMW 12cyl not the chevy LS1

imaradiostar

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 10:03pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 784

Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i

I was thinking rhino-liner, not the air-dry stuff you can get in cans. I guess it'd be pricy to DIY.

I think I'm going to have to subscribe to this magazine!

jamie

bmw_m_320i

Posted Tuesday, Jun 20th 10:08pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 674

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

redmist wrote:

Ahhh so your gonna call it the 357 Magnum

thats gonna be killer. Now whos gonna put a 4.4l M62 to have a 44 Magnum?

Marquis_Rex

Posted Wednesday, Jun 21st 11:42am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 444

UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT

imaradiostar wrote:

I'm biassed here and I'm not really into cross breeding myself, but seeing as it's the topic of the post, I can reccommend the Jaguar S type 3 litre V6 engine. I was involved in it's development, and for modification /aftermarket purposes I reccommended it above the BMW M50 (for kit cars).
It doesn't use hydraulic tappets, but direct acting mechanical buckets (UNLIKE the Ford Taurus V6 -which everyone mistakes it for- which uses roller finger followers that have high inertia), ideal for high revs, it has an 89 mm bore, compared to the M50s 84mm bore (better for less port flow shrouding) has bigger inlet ports, and bigger valves( 35mm vs 33mm for the BMW) and has great flowing ports. Uses a forged steel crankshaft which is good for high revs (I won't say online what it is capable of and then get Jaguar into trouble!) and the engine weighs about 175 kgs- similar to our cast iron M20, but a much shorter engine. The stock motor puts out 240 Bhp and revs to 7000 rpm. This is higher than the BMW M50 unit. If you replaced the cast aluminium resonance inlet manfold you'd defeinately lose more weight too.
The engine base unit can be found in the US in the Lincoln LS6s. Although a more cost cut and compromised version of the Jag motor, it makes a good starting point.

redmist

Posted Wednesday, Jun 21st 5:19pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 849

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

Marquis I would rather use a BMW engine but they are too expensive, like three times the price I got the LS1 and six speed for. My budget for the entire project was $5k.

Thanks for the tip on the engine. I'll look out for one. I want to swap out the motor in my e30 325 eventually and that sounds perfect. What manual tranny hooks up to it without a custom bellhousing?

"...357 Magnum a killer..." LOL Maybe I should just call it "Dirty Harry"

Marquis_Rex

Posted Wednesday, Jun 21st 7:56pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 447

UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT

redmist wrote:

The Getrag 221 5 speed comes as standard on the Jaguar 3 litre S type. Yes it's the same gearbox as used in the BMW 5 series with the same ratios, however the bolt pattern is specially suited to the Jag V6. It's a light weight box and only weighs about 33 Kgs. Also, the gearchange/feel/linkage on the BMW is crisper and more precise- so that may need looking at!

I have no idea what this engine/tranny set up would cost in the USA, I doubt it would be cheap even from a Lincoln LS6, as I imagine perhaps many weren't sold there before they were discontinued? Also- I'm not sure the Lincoln was sold as a manual in the USA. I THINK the S type was.....I can check.
The Lincoln engine was only rated at something like 205-215 Bhp vs the Jags 240, due to lack of Variable cam phasing and resonance manifold, but it wouldn't take much to get it back up there!

For cheap torque and power may be you're better off sticking to Yank V8s?

imaradiostar

Posted Thursday, Jun 22nd 7:09am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 787

Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i

As for the quoted weight for the jag/lincoln V6- is that weight ready to run and fully equipped (AC, PS, etc) or just the basic long block? I recall it being an alloy block engine- is this true?

LKQ has both the engine and manual tranny readily available...and much cheaper than BMW M engines! I see ITB's and a lumpy cam in the future.

jamie

aussie323i

Posted Thursday, Jun 22nd 6:27pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 506

australia
1979 323i

The issue of Performance BMW with the 5.7L M3 in it is the June 2006 issue. There is also a V12 e30 in the issue and a turbo M30 e12.

here's some pics of it:

http://www.featurecars.net/Jagermeister.htm

performance figures:

0-60mph: 5.4
0-100mph: 11.6
1/4 mile: 13.8@111mph
mile: 34.2@130.7mph
Top Speed: 145.7mph

Unfortunately there's not a great story on the car on it's own- just the shoot out.

redmist

Posted Thursday, Jun 22nd 6:39pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 852

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

Thanks Aussie!
Have to get the June issue. I just subscribed to the magazine too. I like the fact that they talk about the older cars.
Pete

redmist

Posted Thursday, Jun 22nd 6:42pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 853

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

Jeez the guy didn't even touch the firewall!
I just don't get it.

aussie323i

Posted Friday, Jun 23rd 12:43pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 508

australia
1979 323i

well the car is actually a genuine M3- so I guess this could explain why he didn't touch the firewall

redmist

Posted Friday, Jun 23rd 5:29pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 854

NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo

Yep a Gen-u-wine M3 (with an Chevy engine) I can see now why he would want to keep it stock and not cut the firewall

KenDanielson

Posted Saturday, Jun 24th 12:07am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Junior Member
Post nr. 192

Petaluma CA
'82 320is, '78 320i

I would do a 4.4L v8 installation into my '78 non-sunroof e21 in a heartbeat if I could get a good deal on the engine/trans. I just happen to have a set of lazer cut exhaust flanges left over from a SCCA S/M e36 ///m344 project. I WOULD modify the firewall and floors for clearance/engine set back. The engine WILL fit between the strut towers. Heck, I would even do a 3.0L v8 installation... That would make a really nice daily driver.

I have been watching a few V12's on ebay lately-they seem to go for less than v8s!! Hmmmmm...

I'm pretty comfortable with MegaSquirt so engine management is not a problem.

ken