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General Forum : Seen it all now !

- BMW E21 Community
   - General Forum
      - Seen it all now !
sunbeam***   Posted Tuesday, Jul 18th 7:02pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 186
   
wirral UK
1982 323i
Amazing how much time and money some people spend on a project!

wilbryant   Posted Tuesday, Jul 18th 10:22pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 45

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
Its clean and done tastefully.....well maybe not the color, but over all its not to bad.

paul dyer   Posted Tuesday, Jul 18th 11:55pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 18

manchester england
1977 rhd 320i/4
I think its great!my kids would love it but where would they sit?

BruceH   Posted Wednesday, Jul 19th 12:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 955
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
As my good friend Joe would say "there is an ass for every seat"!

JJG323   Posted Wednesday, Jul 19th 1:23am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1259
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
BruceH wrote:
As my good friend Joe would say "there is an ass for every seat"!


Hmm. The is a buyer for every seller in real estate,
but Bruce you can feel free to call me an ass for ever driving or making such a creation.

IMO a waste of resources.

MayanArch   Posted Wednesday, Jul 19th 4:10pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1064
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Hey, you never know. Great inventions always result from experimental mistakes..............

well.........at least this guy has the "experimental mistake" part down.

redmist   Posted Wednesday, Jul 19th 4:43pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 903
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
Pretty cool and well executed. Hate the color.

realcrouton   Posted Wednesday, Jul 19th 8:32pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 31
   
Washington, USA
1977 320i, 1981 323i, 1991 325ic, 2000 328i
What a shame... It looks like a Subaru Brat! The only thing that would make it look better would be a set of American bumpers...I wonder if he'd want to trade?

nsbone   Posted Wednesday, Jul 19th 11:32pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 427
   
KL, Malaysia
e21 323/6 316, e34 520i, e32 730i
THe e21 pickup can be used to go around junkyards and carry those M20 engines home...

Would i need just the 2 bars, to recreate the structural strength at rear half...?? hmm, any writeups on the project?

jdench   Posted Thursday, Jul 20th 12:11am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 75

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring
It is for sale on ebay, this thing is up in Glasgow.
Mind you, if you drove it you would get noticed thats for sure!

kpeters   Posted Thursday, Jul 20th 7:05am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 783
   
San Jose, Costa Rica
1981 320/6 Kastanienrot-Metallic 5spd
Hehe nicly finished. The color is well....not my style.

BTW handling must SUCK. Even less weight on the back lol.

Marquis_Rex   Posted Thursday, Jul 20th 7:26am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 460
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
The BMW E30 touring was originally the result of a BMW Body-In-White engineer staying up late and fabricating in his home garage for his own use(This is unheard of with the -by-the-book" pragmatic Germans)

When BMW found out, they wanted to Put it in production and took it off him! As a reward - they gave him the last E30 touring that rolled off production lines.
With an attitude of "There's an Ass for every seat" it's no suprise the E30 touring was not sold in US .

paul dyer   Posted Friday, Jul 21st 12:40am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 19

manchester england
1977 rhd 320i/4
bmw also made a few pickups themself based on e30 m3 cars which they used to shift parts around the factory!

nsbone   Posted Friday, Jul 21st 1:49am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 428
   
KL, Malaysia
e21 323/6 316, e34 520i, e32 730i
paul dyer wrote:
bmw also made a few pickups themself based on e30 m3 cars which they used to shift parts around the factory!


Any "spy" photo of those?

BruceH   Posted Friday, Jul 21st 2:11am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 964
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Marquis you misunderstood. Ass was not meant as judgement. It could have been stated that there is a buyer for every model.

I actually admire the effort. Color isn't my choice but then again it isn't my car is it?


paul dyer   Posted Friday, Jul 21st 2:15am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 20

manchester england
1977 rhd 320i/4
There are lots of pics of mad pickups including e30 m3 pickup at http:www.jalopnik.com/cars/el-camino

chupchup   Posted Friday, Jul 21st 1:02pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 66
   
Singapore
320m20
Great Project, nicely done and I think the colour suits the project very well........ if you all recall this colour scheme is very E21 era.

MayanArch   Posted Friday, Jul 21st 2:40pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1072
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Marquis_Rex wrote:
The BMW E30 touring was originally the result of a BMW Body-In-White engineer staying up late and fabricating in his home garage for his own use(This is unheard of with the -by-the-book" pragmatic Germans)

When BMW found out, they wanted to Put it in production and took it off him! As a reward - they gave him the last E30 touring that rolled off production lines.
With an attitude of "There's an Ass for every seat" it's no suprise the E30 touring was not sold in US .


BMW screwed up big time here. Well, actually.........all Germans screwed up big time here, and they keep on doing it.

Both the SUV and the Station Wagon are American creations for the American family or lifestyle. Germans used to laugh about the quirky looking station wagons......especially the ones with the fake wood siding.

German auto companies came out with a station wagon version when the craze was already over.......Americans were no longer buying station wagons, and instead they were buying SUV's and Mini Vans.

They made the same mistake again with the Mini Van and the SUV...............10 to 15 years after the craze was over.

Here they are producing gargantuan SUV's like the X5 at the peak of an oil crisis, when SUV sales are going to tank until it is over.

Why is Mercedes putting out a Mini Van now? Can anyone find any logic in this?

Why is Porsche, BMW, Mercedes and VW putting out a SUV now?

Who the hell wants to buy a five series station wagon now? It would have sold mad back in the 80's..........but why now?

I hate to say this......but the Japenese have it right with these SUV/Mini Van/Station Wagon things that are all but none at the same time.

No, not SUbaru. Their designers can never make it look normal. Their cars always look retarded. I am talking about the Nissans and others that have those wierd low riding SUVs out there.

Maybe that is why they hired Chris Bangle.

They need to come over here and spend time with a soccer mom......stuffing 7 kiddie bicicles in the back......along with their 5 kids and their 72 friends..............Oh, sorry, thats a Mexican family crossing the border. Ok, their 4 kids along with their 8 friends....into a 4 seater.

Next, they need to take an X5 or an X3 mudding....then hunting, so they can strap a dead deer to the hood of a car.

Now thats a picture!!!! An X5 with a confederate flag painted on the roof, a gun rack, and a deer strapped to the hood. Maybe even add bull horns onto the nose of the car!!!!!!!!!!

Get'R Done!!!!

Marquis_Rex   Posted Saturday, Jul 22nd 4:34pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 461
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
Fair enough Bruce H, I'm sorry.

Mayan Arch, I don't like the Porsche Cayenne or the X5 particularly, but as I understand it the Cayenne has saved Porsche and they're doing very well right now (Hence they've obtained shares in VW).

Understand what you say about the clash between station wagens in the USA and SUVs, however I predict sales of SUVs may be hurt by the massive rise in gas prices over there. [I mean what's the price of gas in the USA now? There was a time that it was one-fifth the price of gas over here, and now it is more close to a half I think.] If that happens what kind of cars do you think SUV drivers will switch to? I think either "cross over" type station wagens (like that Volvo or the Audi All-road)or just plain estates.

MayanArch   Posted Saturday, Jul 22nd 4:43pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1076
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Porsche has increased sales because they were flat. They had nowhere else to go. They had one target customer (older males with small penis), and a whole fleet of cars for them.

Only one type of customer bought Porsches....period. No youth, no female, no family oriented males......just rich executives trying to get laid on the way home from work.

THEY HAD NO FEMALE MARKET TO SPEAK OF. The SUV gave them a small amount of market share into the rest of the world.

Keep in mind that the majority of SUV drivers just want it for the looks...........hence the Porsche SUV. I doubt anyone is taking that Porsche off roading!!!!!

Some of the market replaces Mini Vans and station wagons for the cargo room. However, a lot of the market share is just for the looks........hence why there is actually a market for a Cadillac pick-up. Imagine........who actually loads lumber into a Cadi flat bed!!!!!!!!

Nevertheless, the hay day of the SUV is OVER. It is now morphing into something else......and maybe Porsche can take the lead into the high performance SUV...........which doesnt make sense, since an SUV's height is contradictory to performance.......and meant to clear offroading obstacles.

Hey, they have even experimented with pick-up convertibles. Yes, you can put the top down on your way home from the lumber yard!!!!!!!

BruceH   Posted Saturday, Jul 22nd 8:51pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 966
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Mayan,

Porsche is one of my customers. You don't understand their market nor the dynamics of their recent success.

The Boxster sold very well to women. The Boxster saved Porsche NA. The Cayenne was icing on the cake.

I also think you are confusing the short lived Lincoln Blackwood with Cadillac.

Marquis,

GMC, Hummer & Pontiac are both my customers. They are concerned over SUV & Minivan sales but $3 a gallon gas didn't really hurt the market yet.

Marquis_Rex   Posted Saturday, Jul 22nd 9:36pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 462
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
MayanArch wrote:
Porsche has increased sales because they were flat. They had nowhere else to go. They had one target customer (older males with small penis),

I used to think you were a good guy! Last time I help you via email!

jdench   Posted Saturday, Jul 22nd 11:12pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 76

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring
Now, now ladies, play nice

Marquis_Rex   Posted Monday, Jul 24th 1:28pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 463
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
Hey Man- I was joking, wasn't really pee-d off!
jdench, being a Brit- thought you would have picked up on that!

MayanArch   Posted Monday, Jul 24th 4:34pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1078
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Oooops, forgot you owned one.

I knew you were kidding. You knew I was kidding.

MayanArch   Posted Monday, Jul 24th 4:37pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1079
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
BruceH wrote:
Mayan,

Porsche is one of my customers. You don't understand their market nor the dynamics of their recent success.

The Boxster sold very well to women. The Boxster saved Porsche NA. The Cayenne was icing on the cake.

I also think you are confusing the short lived Lincoln Blackwood with Cadillac.

Marquis,

GMC, Hummer & Pontiac are both my customers. They are concerned over SUV & Minivan sales but $3 a gallon gas didn't really hurt the market yet.


Bruce,

When was the last time you saw a woman on a Porsche?? I mean driving it...not with her head stuck between the steering wheel and the old guy's stomach!

I agree that the Boxter is probably their first car that semi-appealed to a female market. Like I said, anything would have been an increase considering they had none before.

Compare Boxter sales to females.......to just about any other car, and it is still pathetic. I see more women in big wheeled pick-ups than I do Porsches...........and Miami is one of Porsche's most important markets.

How many of you know a woman that owns a Porsche? How many of you have seen a woman driving a Porsche?

I think I may have seen that once in my entire life


kpeters   Posted Monday, Jul 24th 7:04pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 785
   
San Jose, Costa Rica
1981 320/6 Kastanienrot-Metallic 5spd
Actually once in my life, she was driving a rusted out white 924 automatic.

BruceH   Posted Monday, Jul 24th 8:20pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 970
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
I had a female student at our AX school driving a Carrera RS. Got passed by a good looking blond in her 50s in a 930 last week. Saw another yesterday in a run of the mill 911.

BruceH   Posted Monday, Jul 24th 8:47pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 971
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Oh yeah... my wife mentioned her 356 from a while back.

jdench   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 12:38am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 77

Sussex, UK
1979 E21 323i, 1998 E36 323i touring
I had, hence the

Oh, I saw a woman in a boxster s the other day (well not for long as I flew past in my sprinter )
But, I saw a woman in probably her late fourties in a TVR Griffith 500 the other day, and it was being driven like it was stolen!

wilbryant   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 1:27am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 46

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
Mayan,

I work for Porsche Cars North America headquarters here is Atlanta, I'm a network engineer but being a big German car fan I speak with the guys in the marketing group from time to time about what's new and up and coming.

You got it all wrong, Bruce is right on the money, the boxster is the car that put Porsche back on the map. And, it was the female buyer along with the entire level buyer that made them so popular. Porsche figured out that they have a market here for that type of car in that price range and came out with the Cayman as well last year. ( The Cayman really is a hard top boxster)

I agree with you the German car market is behind when it comes to the latest trends,it seems they are not so willing to change.

Not sure what part of Florida you live in, but here in Atlanta we see women driving Porsches all the time and not just the boxster.

IMPO..... I think the boxster is a chick car along with the Z4.

Wilbryant

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 2:15am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1080
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
wilbryant wrote:
Mayan,

I work for Porsche Cars North America headquarters here is Atlanta, I'm a network engineer but being a big German car fan I speak with the guys in the marketing group from time to time about what's new and up and coming.

You got it all wrong, Bruce is right on the money, the boxster is the car that put Porsche back on the map. And, it was the female buyer along with the entire level buyer that made them so popular. Porsche figured out that they have a market here for that type of car in that price range and came out with the Cayman as well last year. ( The Cayman really is a hard top boxster)

I agree with you the German car market is behind when it comes to the latest trends,it seems they are not so willing to change.

Not sure what part of Florida you live in, but here in Atlanta we see women driving Porsches all the time and not just the boxster.

IMPO..... I think the boxster is a chick car along with the Z4.

Wilbryant


Will, I live in Miami.........Porsche country for all the lawyers, doctors, movies stars, sports stars, and International celebreties!!!!

You guys are making my point. I am not disagreing with you. Both of you are basically saying that Porsche had no female market until the Boxter.

Yes, the Boxter changed that a bit, but as far as the female market goes Porsche is sooooooooooooo far behind the rest of the German companies they are not even worth speaking about.

I mean really......are you guys going to tell me that a proportional amount of women buy Porsches as compared to BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and VW????

There is no proportionality there........at all. I am sure the guys at Porsche marketing were thrilled to see some females show up on their statistics.........but common.

Back to my central point: It took companies like Porsche until the late 90's and early 2000s to figure out that women like cute and sporty convertibles.......and/or an elegant high class SUV. I hope the marketing guys at Porsche arent patting themselves on the back for this revelation.

The real question is how much money did Porsche lose from the start of the decadent 80's to 2000 for NOT comming to this obvious realization?

How much money did BMW and Mercedes lose in comming out with station wagons 15 years too late. How many rich moms that had the choice between a Chevy station wagon and a boxy Volvo wouldnt have paid through the nose so they could drive a Mercedes or BMW with the same functionality?

Even VW....which is typically known for their marketing genious dropped the ball on this.



BruceH   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 4:19am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 972
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Mayan,

You are comparing apples and zebras. Porsche was, and to some degree, is a specialty car manufacturer. Bmw and Mercedes are trying to reach all market segments. Porsche was successful as you knew what a Porsche was. You CANNOT say that about BMW or Mercedes as they are much bigger and broader. Think about it, 7 series thru X3.

Wil, say hi to the folks on the 10th floor for me!

B

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 4:48am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1081
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
BruceH wrote:
Mayan,

You are comparing apples and zebras. Porsche was, and to some degree, is a specialty car manufacturer. Bmw and Mercedes are trying to reach all market segments. Porsche was successful as you knew what a Porsche was. You CANNOT say that about BMW or Mercedes as they are much bigger and broader. Think about it, 7 series thru X3.

Wil, say hi to the folks on the 10th floor for me!

B


Yes, that is right, but the days when Porsche was closer to the Alpina company are long gone. Alpina is considered a car manufacturer in Germany, just like Porsche. That is their legal status. However, they dont have dealerships and an International network to worry about. They truly can focus on making dream machines.

Porsche has been suffering from an identity crisis for 20 to 30 years now. They perfected the machine, and then stagnated by trying to keep ahead of the pack.

Their identity made a whole lot of sense at the end of the 1970's when there were no true production sports cars between a Mustang and a Ferrari. Porsche was there for a very long time until companies like BMW started producing M3's.

Companies like Saleen and Alpina are what Porsche wants to be known as.............but no longer is. They are no longer the nimble sports car manufacturer that they grew up as. They have not been so for quite some time.

Porsche has been a production model company for quite some time, and with all the overhead and bulk to go along with it. Their target market stayed the same while their size as a company grew exponentially.

Porsche used to be the upper-middle class Ferrari......all by itself. Its been a long time since that was true.

wilbryant   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 5:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 47

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
Mayan,

Bruce is right again, Porsche back then and even now consider themselves a " speciality" automotive company they only sold 35k cars here in the USA this year. So you are correct their numbers are no were near VW, BMW, Audi.

But Porsche unlike the other car companies has NO debt, they pay for everything including research and design up front. And it may come as a surprise that a lot of other car companies pay Porsche to help with their research and design. ( like: VW, Mercedes, Harley Davidson, Audi)

I agree there are a lot of things that the German car makers come to the game late with, but there are a lot of things that they have been doing for years that the big three here are just now getting around to. Ford only 3 years ago started installing rear disk breaks on all the mustangs, Honda still puts drums on the rear of the civic.

If your going to compare you need to compare them with the likes of Ferrari, Maserati, Auston Martin, Lotous

I'll tell them you said hello Bruce..

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 5:48am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1082
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
wilbryant wrote:
Mayan,

Bruce is right again, Porsche back then and even now consider themselves a " speciality" automotive company they only sold 35k cars here in the USA this year. So you are correct their numbers are no were near VW, BMW, Audi.

But Porsche unlike the other car companies has NO debt, they pay for everything including research and design up front. And it may come as a surprise that a lot of other car companies pay Porsche to help with their research and design. ( like: VW, Mercedes, Harley Davidson, Audi)

I agree there are a lot of things that the German car makers come to the game late with, but there are a lot of things that they have been doing for years that the big three here are just now getting around to. Ford only 3 years ago started installing rear disk breaks on all the mustangs, Honda still puts drums on the rear of the civic.

If your going to compare you need to compare them with the likes of Ferrari, Maserati, Auston Martin, Lotous

I'll tell them you said hello Bruce..


Hey, no one said that they werent really good at what they do.........the point is, that that is ALL they do/did up until the Boxter and the Chayenne.......which came literally 25 years too late.

We are talking about a loss of sales and revenue in the many hundreds of millions of dollars because of that lack of dimensionality.

Porsche didnt need to become a VW or an Audi in order to come to the realization that a small sporty roadster would be in line with their personality and open up an entire new market. They should have been on the forefront, not following the Mazda Miata.

The SUV....well, that one isnt so obvious as the roadster. Roadsters are in Porsches distant past. That thought should have come naturally to them.

Timing is everything. Being late to the game gets you style points at best.

As far as American cars.....well, I would rather buy an old BMW than a new Mustang.

Porsche's game plan is not that of an Austin Martin or Lotus. That is the identity crisis I am talking about. Porsche has not been a TRUE specialty car for a long time. When Porsche does a complete reinvention of their automobiles on a consistent basis......like Ferrari and Lotus, then they can keep calling themselves that. However, Porsche has been up to the same game for 20 to 30 years..........with technological upgrades, yes.........but nowhere near like the leaps and bounds those other companies make. A Porsche from the 80s still looks very much like the Porsches of today. A Ferrari from the 80's looks outdated compared to a Ferrari from today.

Ferrari is still in the game of pure innovation like a specialty car company should be. Porsche is pumping out the consistent models that their target market expects out of them...........probably with more predictable changes than even a 3 Series BMW.

myersport   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 5:49am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 184
   
east tennessee
'82 320iS. '91 327iC
Mayan-
I may add that Alpina is no longer the company that they used to be. They are building some great cars still, but not the innovative beasts that they used to in the late 70's thru late 90's.
--Dennis

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 5:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1083
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
myersport wrote:
Mayan-
I may add that Alpina is no longer the company that they used to be. They are building some great cars still, but not the innovative beasts that they used to in the late 70's thru late 90's.
--Dennis


Alpina is stagnating. I love their old stuff better too. Alpina is the hermit crab of car companies. Their dilema is that they have to innovate within the shell of BMW.

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 6:11am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1084
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Betcha I can draw a series of thumbnail sketches of what Porsche's 2010 product line will look like.

wilbryant   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 6:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 48

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
Yup, you are correct Porsche never really changes they do what they do well, but that's why an average 1980 911 with over 150k miles hold is value better then 90% of all cars that same year with less miles.

This is also why I personally like the older european cars because they pretty much stayed the same, BMW and Mercedes were pretty good with that pre 1995 now they all look like GM/ Toyota products.

BruceH   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 2:30pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 973
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
You cannot compare Alpina to Porsche. Alpina may be considered a manufacturer, for registration purposes, in Germany but in reality they aren't and never were.

Did you say that Ferrari and Lotus are more innovative than Porsche? You are confusing styling with technology.

Get over it, Porsche builds a superb automobile. They know their market.

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 2:42pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1085
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
Bruce, Will,

We are all here because we prefer old German cars. You dont have to sell me on that.

However, the change from

THIS:



TO THIS:



IS MORE THAN JUST PLAIN OLD "STYLING" or FASHION

Face it, Porsche has not taken such bold steps in a long time.

I am always a fan of old German cars...........but I know bold innovation when I see it...........as well as stagnation.

This type of innovation is what a true "specialty car" maker does.

In fact, I would argue that Porsche is stuck in the mud with "styling". It seems to me they are deathly scared to change that age old frog shape of a car....for fear of losing identity.

BruceH   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 4:21pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 974
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
I know we are "arguing" for fun here.


Put a run of the mill 911T from the early 70's side by side with the current Carrera GT2 and you have the same effect. Guess which manufacturer made money? Not the Italian as the road car division loses money.

You arent going to convince me by comparing apples and zebras.

BTW, the Dino (or was that a 308?) was a crappy car, good looking but crappy.

MayanArch   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 4:47pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1086
   
Florida, USA
Baur E21 2.7 1982, Baur E30 318i 1985, 323i 1978
BruceH wrote:
I know we are "arguing" for fun here.


Put a run of the mill 911T from the early 70's side by side with the current Carrera GT2 and you have the same effect. Guess which manufacturer made money? Not the Italian as the road car division loses money.

You arent going to convince me by comparing apples and zebras.

BTW, the Dino (or was that a 308?) was a crappy car, good looking but crappy.


Yeah, not to insult anyone.......since I am a Latino as well...........but I think that has to do with business culture as well.

No one said that Ferrari as a company was a model for austere efficiency.

bmw_m_320i   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 5:38pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 700
   
Helena, Montana
none right now :(
MayanArch wrote:
[quote=BruceH]
No one said that Ferrari as a company was a model for austere efficiency.


I dont think that Ferrari has ever, or ever intended to be a symbol of "austere efficiency". I really think that they have other agendas that are higher on their priority list.


Seriously, when you get on a waiting list for a car that is $250,000 and has crank windows, and no option for A/C, production effiency is out of the window!


BruceH   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 8:27pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 975
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Latin business?

I used to work with a company north of Venice. The marketing staff were all females in fishnet stockings. God how I loved visiting that company.

They had their own vineyard too.

wilbryant   Posted Tuesday, Jul 25th 9:53pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 49

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
Mayan,

Talk about "bold innovation" have you forgotten about the Carrera GT?

BruceH   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 12:19am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 977
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
And the 959 and the 917 and the 904, etc.........

imaradiostar   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 12:44am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 835
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
One of my best customers is a woman that drives a Porsche Spyder kit car. She'd drive an original but last I checked they're going for over 300 thousand dollars in good shape.

It's really not fair to compare an Italian car to a German car. I think the apples to zebras thing is the best way to sum that up.

jamie

wilbryant   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 12:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 50

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
Or it's maybe like comparing an Olympic wrestler to a WWF wrestler......they are both the same but there is a HUGE different.

BruceH   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 1:16am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 978
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Wil,

The wrestler analogy isn't fair as it implies the Italian/WWF is a fake. Ferrari builds great cars but they have never been as refined as a Porsche. Maybe that is what you are implying. If that is the case I agree.

B

wilbryant   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 1:39am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 51

GA
82 Baur 323, 95 M540
No I was not implying Ferrari is fake....They both do the same thing, one is much more flash and you know the power is there. You said it best Porsche is more refined.

kpeters   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 3:41am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 786
   
San Jose, Costa Rica
1981 320/6 Kastanienrot-Metallic 5spd
BruceH wrote:
Wil,

Ferrari builds great cars but they have never been as refined as a Porsche.
B


At least there is someone else in the world that thinks the same COMPLETELY agree.

Marquis_Rex   Posted Wednesday, Jul 26th 8:54am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 464
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
I can see why someone would think that Ferrari are more innovative than Porsche. Styling, image and "Feel" is very important to a Ferrari and it has to be good to be seen in. When I did work for Aston Martin, I borrowed a 360. I was left feeling unimpressed.
Porsches are subtle and refined, they're about refined evolution and not about change for changes sake, like BMW USED to be. Their styling is aimed to be "timeless" rather than fashion-leader. It's a shame BMW have decided to follow fashion these days IMO.
As for engineering innnovation, the new 997 Turbo is very innovative, using variable geometry Turbos- a first amongst petrol engines, and the LSA or multi link rear axle on the rear of the 993 along with it's variable boost control was pretty innovative.
If anything I think Porsche have moved up-market now, in the late 70's the 911 was on it's death bed (thanks to Ernst Fuhrman) with the AWEFUL SC that could barely make 180 bhp, Porsche had "sold" themselves and were making VW van engined 924s and Front engined Teutonic Corvettes. Their cars now have a signature identity. It's a shame that the water boxers and modern stuff isn't quite as reliable and robust as the last of the air cooled 993s but Ce La Vie!

wharthog   Posted Friday, Sep 1st 7:23pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 46
   
SF Bay,California, USA
1982 323i, , R1150RT
I think Porsche has two problems... mostly self created. Dr. Porsche created the problem that his company has spent the better part of a century solving. The heaviest componant in the car is hanging out over the back wheels. It's a physics and vehicle dynamics nightmare! There is a legend that one of the early test drivers in an early 930 wrote the german word for "poison" under the handling heading in the logbook.
Having driven a modern carrera S and just recently a Cayman S I believe through incredible technology and engineering they have overcome this problem.

SECONDLY: Porsche refuses to build a reasonably priced sportscar that will unseat it's icon; the venerable 911. The cayman would be a no brainer purchase with 50 more horses (Which factory engineers say it would take in stride) but they refuse to threaten their own flawed halo car with such a beast. If you look at all their marketing materials they have carefully maintained a heirachy boxster-cayman-911 in price, performance (horsepower), and hence (the marketing people believe... status?) Porsche should have a wider variety of engine configuations for models other than the 911 to broden their market...

BruceH   Posted Friday, Sep 1st 8:52pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 997
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Just to stir the pot a little more..... The Cayman isn't rreally rear engined is it?

imaradiostar   Posted Saturday, Sep 2nd 3:20am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 862
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
it's technically mid-engined, right?

jamie

melloh   Posted Saturday, Sep 2nd 5:09am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 411
   
California, USA (San Jose)
1980 320is, 1991 318is
i thought the boxter/caymen is front engine.

BruceH   Posted Saturday, Sep 2nd 6:37am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 999
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
mid


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