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Tech Forum : let's have an oil argu...I mean discussion

- BMW E21 Community
   - Tech Forum
      - let's have an oil argu...I mean discussion
imaradiostar   Posted Monday, Oct 30th 10:10am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 914
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
I replaced the oil pan gasket & valve cover gaskets on the 535i tonight and adjusted the valves. When it came time to put oil in it I used Pennzoil Platinum "euro formulation" 5w40. Yeah, yeah; I know. It's too thin. No. It's not.

BMW recommends (and uses) 15w40 for all older cars at this point. I've done some checking on the internet and with very few exceptions the Platinum synthetic is just as thick as 15w40 at high temps while still being thinner at lower temps. In all seriousness I see no reason why it won't be better for the engine than a normal 15w40 oil.

Another thought- many bimmers end up with excessive valve train wear. I feel like it's pretty normal for a cold m20 or m30 engine to not get much oil at the camshaft. With the 5w40 there was plenty of oil spraying on the cam, even from a cold start.

So, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm destroying my car. I don't care...I've installed this oil and I'm going to use it for at least 6k miles (driving to PA and ME from TN over Christmas) and if it causes problems it's OK because I'm going to be installing a new cam and rockers shortly anyway!

I've been pushing 5w40 synth as "oil for any car" at work. I'm going to make sure I'm right!

jamie

imaradiostar   Posted Monday, Oct 30th 10:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 915
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
Did I mention there's 256 thousand miles on my 535i? Original engine, head and everything.

jamie

BruceH   Posted Monday, Oct 30th 2:52pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1028
   
Atlanta, GA USA
81 323 Baur, 85 745
Your research shows 5w is the same as 15w? Can you share your sources? Viscosity is viscosity, dino or synthetic, all the same.

Isn't this like saying 2 pounds of aluminum is lighter than 2 pounds of steel?

Call me skeptical but respectful of your skills.

Bruce

imaradiostar   Posted Monday, Oct 30th 3:34pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 916
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
I'll try to post links.

here's a link to the PP euro formulation datasheet. Look at the viscosity numbers. It's given at two temps which is used in the SAE methods for determining the "weight" of an oil.

http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/DomesticMarketing/EngineOils/pdf/PlatinumSyntheticEuropeanFormulation.PDF

Here's a link to Kendall Super D-3. Bare in mind this is a diesel oil. It's definately heavier than the 5w40 at 100 degrees but not by much.

http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/NR/rdonlyres/CD5DE04F-2A0A-4AA4-86A3-798E3AD7D4C6/0/K_SD3_Dsl_Multi.pdf

I have only found tech data for one Castrol 15w40 and it's an Ag oil. I have no idea what BMW 15w40 is but I believe it's made by Castrol or Mobil, both of which seem to no longer sell a conventional 15w40 for passanger cars so it's tough to know unless I can find a BMW datasheet.

It seems that the real difference is in the cold performance- the new synthetics simply flow better cold which gives them a lower cold rating. They still act like a heavier oil as temp goes up.

I've been running 5w40 in my freshly rebuilt 323i for a while with no ill effects. Time will tell.

I think I'm going to use VW 505.01 approved oil on my next performance engine build. It has special friction modifiers for the high-pressure cam that runs the unit injectors on the TDI PD engines. I think this will aid in reducing rocker and cam wear. Interestingly enough I can only find this oil in a semi-synth. Perhaps there's something in dyno oil that makes this possible. Till then it's full synth all the way- it's already been proven in diesel and industrial applications which are more strenuous than our usage.

jamie

redmist   Posted Monday, Oct 30th 11:07pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 995
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
Myself I don't think it makes much difference. I think changing the oil every 3000 miles is what provides longevity. Whatever synthetic muti-vicosity is on sale is what I buy. I have used Mobil 1 0-40 (yes zero) as an experiment but I have a problem psyhcologically with "zero" so typically go no lower than 15.

Madhatter   Posted Monday, Oct 30th 11:18pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 76

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30
I dont know what all the fuss is about, i used 15w/40 in mine with the M20, and when the m30 goes back into the other car it will probably be run on 10w/30.

Dude, they are surposed to act like a heavier oil when the temp goes up, thats the whole purpose of the oil weight. colder temps, warmer temps. Like bruce said, weight is weight, doesnt matter what flavour.

I dont think you really understand oil weights, if you have a 5w/40 weight oil, such as the pennzoil you have, and some other random 15w/40 weight synthetic, both oils are going to have similar viscosity numbers when heated. This is because they both have to pass the same testing to be labeled a 40w oil. The difference in oils is when the engine is cold.

The problem running thinner cold weight oils in older vehicles is that, while you may think you are coating your components in oil, the pressure is actually reduced. Thinner oils flow freely, but, and here is the problem, generate less oil pressure as there is less resistance when it passes through the oil pump and galleries.

Thicker oils deliver more pressure at a reduced volume, which in the case of higher mileage engines, can be important. As an engine wears clearences start to open up, in particular between oil pump surfaces, and between crank journals and bearings. This creates a drop in pressure as the oil has less resistance when flowing over components, its primarily the reason why worn motors suffer oil pressure issues. What you find happening is that there is insufficient oil pressure available to fill these enlargened clearences, this creates major problems for bearings as they cant "wick up" to keep the journals coated.

So yes, thin oil will flow better when cold, however it has a significantly reduced pressure which can be a problem with high mileage engines.

Marquis_Rex   Posted Tuesday, Oct 31st 2:59pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 487
   
UK
BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
Jamie I totally agree with your reasoning, infact I've been using 0W-40 oil in my e21 since the last engine upgrade/overhaul. I studied engine tribology in my masters and a 15W-40 oil has the same kinematic viscosity as 0W-40 at high temps

The only reason I use an oil with a thicker rating at cold cranking on the Porsche is because it had leaky cam cover gaskets (which should be now fixed!)

The amount of friction reduction by using an oil with a low kinematic viscosity number at high temps should not be underestimated

redmist   Posted Tuesday, Oct 31st 4:05pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 996
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
Marquis I had the same results with the 0-40, SOP the engine felt like it performed better under all conditions, milage was better as well.
Lacking the technical expertise you do I just got nervous at that "zero" number.
Now that someone with the technical knowledge to know what they are talking about (you) has endorsed it I'l go back to using it (when it's on sale )

imaradiostar   Posted Tuesday, Oct 31st 5:03pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 919
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
Madhatter wrote:
I dont know what all the fuss is about, i used 15w/40 in mine with the M20, and when the m30 goes back into the other car it will probably be run on 10w/30.

Dude, they are surposed to act like a heavier oil when the temp goes up, thats the whole purpose of the oil weight. colder temps, warmer temps. Like bruce said, weight is weight, doesnt matter what flavour.

I dont think you really understand oil weights, if you have a 5w/40 weight oil, such as the pennzoil you have, and some other random 15w/40 weight synthetic, both oils are going to have similar viscosity numbers when heated. This is because they both have to pass the same testing to be labeled a 40w oil. The difference in oils is when the engine is cold.

The problem running thinner cold weight oils in older vehicles is that, while you may think you are coating your components in oil, the pressure is actually reduced. Thinner oils flow freely, but, and here is the problem, generate less oil pressure as there is less resistance when it passes through the oil pump and galleries.

Thicker oils deliver more pressure at a reduced volume, which in the case of higher mileage engines, can be important. As an engine wears clearences start to open up, in particular between oil pump surfaces, and between crank journals and bearings. This creates a drop in pressure as the oil has less resistance when flowing over components, its primarily the reason why worn motors suffer oil pressure issues. What you find happening is that there is insufficient oil pressure available to fill these enlargened clearences, this creates major problems for bearings as they cant "wick up" to keep the journals coated.

So yes, thin oil will flow better when cold, however it has a significantly reduced pressure which can be a problem with high mileage engines.


If it doesn't make a difference hot then why are you arguing for thicker oils? What's the matter, don't you understand how oil works?

Hatter, sometimes I think you make excellent points and I totally agree. Other times (and I'm guilty of this as well) I think you just like to argue. It appears that you contridicted yourself.

My other comment would be this- the thicker oils result in more friction and heat. It's entirely possible that a slight thinner synthetic will run cooler and lubricate better as a result of its different characteristics.

Another thing- BMW didn't tighten clearances for later motors. Last I checked late model M54 engines use the same bearing shells for the crank and rod journals as the M20 motors. More food for thought...

jamie

imaradiostar   Posted Tuesday, Oct 31st 5:54pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 920
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
We use a ton of 0w40 mobil 1 at work. We used to sell many different multigrade synthetics. Now we sell three - mobil 1 0w40, pennzoil platinum 5w40 euro formulation and mobil 1 15w50. I only used the pennzoil in my car because it's cheaper.
We still stock mobil 1 15w50 for older cars and higher performance engines (late model ITB'd M3s) that call for a thicker oil. I was originally going to use it in my 5 but I'm planning a trip to Maine over winter (cold startup!) and by this time of year it's quite rare to see temps in the 80's so I figured 5w40 should be helpful. I had been running Kendall D3 15w40 even in the summer so I'm really not concerned.

I think another advantage of the synthetic is the additive package. My 5 is my daily driver recently- it doesn't reach operating temp on my short drive into work. I've read that synthetics are better at dealing with the combustion byproducts and trash the result from a short commute. I'm going to do an oil analysis when I'm done with this stuff and see how much life it has left.

jamie

usang36   Posted Tuesday, Oct 31st 10:37pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 22

Oregon
78 320i, 83 320iS
My 1.8L has about 600mi on it since I rebuilt it, and I have been excited to go to synthetic when it's broken in. Mobile 1, probably.

I looked at Redline as a motor oil. Even on the bottle, it states that the 20/50 is for hi-temp applications but no one ever pays attention to that. Thier rating system is a little different if you read into it. So before I rebuilt my motor, I bought a 'known good' used one from a local enthusiast for $650 (with tranny) that professed to use nothing but Redline 20/50 for the 5 years that he owned it. Since the outside of the engine showed leaks from just about every gasket, I decided to reseal the engine before insstalling it. Well, cyl 2 and 3 were toast and frozen due to antifreeze sitting in there for 1.5yrs, but cyl 1 and 4 looked ok. The inside of the head was pure dark read goop. It was awful! The bottom end also had a large amount of reline sludge. Crank was perfect though I used that crank and rebuilt the original motor. I think not only viscosities are important, but the (oil) manufacture's specs should be taken into consideration also.

My 2pennies

John

e21enthusiast   Posted Tuesday, Oct 31st 11:14pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 30
   
eugene,oregon
hennarot 320is,topasbraun metalic 323
Amsoil 5W-40 European car formula FOR THE WIN!

imaradiostar   Posted Wednesday, Nov 1st 12:10am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 922
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
e21enthusiast wrote:
Amsoil 5W-40 European car formula FOR THE WIN!


...and the empty wallet!! unless you're running it for a bajillion miles I can't see the cost of amsoil.

Madhatter   Posted Wednesday, Nov 1st 11:28am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 77

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30
imaradiostar wrote:


If it doesn't make a difference hot then why are you arguing for thicker oils? What's the matter, don't you understand how oil works?

Hatter, sometimes I think you make excellent points and I totally agree. Other times (and I'm guilty of this as well) I think you just like to argue. It appears that you contridicted yourself.

My other comment would be this- the thicker oils result in more friction and heat. It's entirely possible that a slight thinner synthetic will run cooler and lubricate better as a result of its different characteristics.

Another thing- BMW didn't tighten clearances for later motors. Last I checked late model M54 engines use the same bearing shells for the crank and rod journals as the M20 motors. More food for thought...

jamie


You do realise that the difference in oil viscosity numbers is 100 degrees in temp right? I dont know about you but it takes a good 5 mins of driving in the morning before my old 323i ever got near those sort of numbers for oil temps.

Did you read what i said? you know that the majority of engine wear occurs at start up and when an engine is cold right? now go back and read what i said about thinner oils, during cold start up, in worn engines.

Where did i contradict myself? I never said anything about running thinner oils being a problem, i said thinner cold weight oils can be a problem for high mileage (see old) engines.

It doesnt look like you understood what i said about clearences? Go back again and read it. I said with old engines, not meaning old technology, but those which have been in service for a long period of time. Through use, metal surfaces wear and clearences start to open up, this is common knowledge, so what is the problem?

For older engines, running an oil with a thinner cold weight can cause oil pressure problems. Again, this is due to main and crank bearings, oil galleries, plus oil pump surfaces wearing.

Thinner oils will flow better, however the pressure drops which causes problems for bearings as they cant pickup the oil properly when the journal spins in the shell. The other problem is, that when you have a lack of pressure, the first thing to suffer from oil starvation is usually the highest point in the engine. In this case, the cylinder head and cam. Oil starvation and lack of pressure or flow is a major factor in bearing and cam failures, especially in high mileage engines.

It only takes a difference of a few thousands of an inch in bearing clearences to have quite a noticible impact on oil pressure. Oil pressure and volume go hand in hand, neither is usefull without the other.

I made it clear that, when hot, a 40 weight oil is still a 40 weight oil, it doesnt make a world of difference if it is a multi or a synth. However, running a thinner cold weight oil in an older, especially high mileage engine can be a cause for concern, what i posted is the actual reason for concern, and what the difference is with old engines are compared to newer ones. This is why they reccomend thicker oils, for no other reason other than this.

The other side of the coin is oil seals which can and do fail when switching to thinner or synthetic oils, but that is a whole different debate.

pjs323i   Posted Wednesday, Nov 1st 3:23pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 51
   
Canberra, Australia
'81 323i
okay, i'm no mechanic before i start so i'm going to need a little education.

At the moment i have been running Castrol GTX 20w50 and so did the previous owner. Now, on the lable it stated that this is for older/run in engines and Castrol GTX seeming quiet a reliable brand i decided to go for it. I have had it in for a few changes now and it seems fine. i dont know how many k's my 323 has actually done though (its stuck on 150000 the BMW service book shows services untill 130000 in 1992) and it doesn't blow smoke or drink oil yet so i guess the engine is in very good condition.

Am i using the wrong oil? Is it too thick? because there seems to be a lot of talk about 5/15w40 and for me...thats way too thin for such an old engine.

KenDanielson   Posted Wednesday, Nov 1st 4:27pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 192

Petaluma CA
'82 320is, '78 320i
To add fuel to this fire check out this link on a real world oil test in a car. Not totally up to scientific standards but better than heating it in a pan... I have not read it all yet but it seems pretty interesting.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

My two cents on the thick vs thin oil on start up is: Thick oil shows higher oil pressure on the gage of course but that DOES NOT mean you have more oil volume going to the bearings. Pressure and volume are NOT the same thing. Thicker oil is harder to pump and does not get between the bearings and journals, the piston skirt and cylinder walls or the cam lobes and rockers as well as thinner oil will on start up.

My '82 m10 has about 100,000 hard mi on a performance rebuild and it spikes the oil pressure gage on start up. I take it very easy on the engine until it is thoroughly warmed up as indicated by normal hot oil temp-NOT the water temp gage... I had the head off last year and there are still cross hatch showing on the cyliner walls and hot oil pressure at idle is 45psi, 65psi at 3000rpm.

As far as an oil being for "high temp" applications, my m10 IS a high temp application in normal opperation. Those little suckers work pretty hard and deserve all the help they can get. I have recently installed a remote oil filter, oil thermostat and oil cooler on that car to ensure it's got clean oil at the correct temp.



ken


imaradiostar   Posted Wednesday, Nov 1st 5:01pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 924
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
Madhatter, I have to say I misunderstood what you were saying. I apologize for picking on you.

I see a lot of oil in a lot of cars as a mechanic. In my experience 20w50 is too thick at startup- an insufficient amount of oil makes it to the cylinder head and oil sprayer bar. In the summer heat when it's already 80 degrees at startup it isn't a problem. I'd imagine a few winters in Pennsylvania where I grew up with 20w50 and you'd have substantial cam wear.

I don't know the facts on this really- the internet has been a wonderful tool for spreading good and bad information so it's tough to sort out what the right oil is. BMW's recommendations were based on technology of the time.

It's interesting to note that British BMW customers complain about not getting the lighter multi grades for their cars while American BMW customers that had the light multigrades complained about not having the BMW/Castrol 10w60, even though our M engines were simply bored/stroked standard 325i engines. It seems the grass is always greener on the other side!

I favor flow over pressure- we'll see if I'm right!

jamie

aussie323i   Posted Wednesday, Nov 1st 10:10pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 534

australia
1979 323i
pjs323i wrote:
okay, i'm no mechanic before i start so i'm going to need a little education.

At the moment i have been running Castrol GTX 20w50 and so did the previous owner. Now, on the lable it stated that this is for older/run in engines and Castrol GTX seeming quiet a reliable brand i decided to go for it. I have had it in for a few changes now and it seems fine. i dont know how many k's my 323 has actually done though (its stuck on 150000 the BMW service book shows services untill 130000 in 1992) and it doesn't blow smoke or drink oil yet so i guess the engine is in very good condition.

Am i using the wrong oil? Is it too thick? because there seems to be a lot of talk about 5/15w40 and for me...thats way too thin for such an old engine.


Don't worry... your 20W50 will be fine... one thing to remember about Australian conditions is that we rarely have 'cold' weather- not in the Northern Hemisphere sense, and on your high mileage motor the thin stuff will probably just leak out everywhere

My brother inlaw's 318i had oil pressure issues (oil light would come on at idle) I ran 40W70 and it was fine... I wouldn't recomend it in a motor that's still ok, but it stopped the pressure issues he was having, so he got some extra time out of his motor before having to rebuild... don't worry everyone.... I know the cold figure is as high as most of your hot figures

I personally run 10W60 in my motor (which is new) and it seems to do the trick... nice and thin on startup (the oil light flicks off as soon as the motor turns) and still thick enough when things get hot... ie. outside is 100F +.

Madhatter   Posted Thursday, Nov 2nd 10:08am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 78

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30
KenDanielson wrote:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

My two cents on the thick vs thin oil on start up is: Thick oil shows higher oil pressure on the gage of course but that DOES NOT mean you have more oil volume going to the bearings. Pressure and volume are NOT the same thing. Thicker oil is harder to pump and does not get between the bearings and journals, the piston skirt and cylinder walls or the cam lobes and rockers as well as thinner oil will on start up.



It does get in between bearings as it should, you would need to run oil with the consistency of trecle for it not to happen. Have you seen how bearings work? they actually pull the oil towards the journal to pick it up.

If you want a good vision, take your garden hose and take the nozzle off the end and watch what happens. Large amounts of water exit, but at reduced pressure so the water doesnt travel far. Now put the nozzle back on and see what happens, a reduced volume of water is expelled, but with much higher pressure, travelling much further distances. Same thing happens in an engine.

Mobil Super XHP is oil reccomended for the early engines, its a 20w50, so you arent going to do any harm by continuing to run it. You have to remember, there werent really such a large spectrum of oils when you start going back in years. All the new oil weights have come about by using viscosity modifiers to create different weights and multi grades. They arent actually produced with a certain viscosity.

You really need to match you oil to your engine and its operating environment, it isnt worth changing from that which is specified unless you know what you are doing.

KenDanielson   Posted Thursday, Nov 2nd 4:36pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 192

Petaluma CA
'82 320is, '78 320i
I have heard that annalogy before but an oil system is NOT like a hose and I DON'T want more pressure on start up, I want VOLUME- QUICKLY to fill the gap between the bearings and journals and get up to the piston skirts/cylinder walls.

In your own words you say the nozzle on the hose increases pressure and reduces volume-the opposite effect that a cold engine needs... It is also well documented that thick oil does not flow into small spaces such as the .0025" bearing clearance as well as a thinner oil. Thick oil also does not "splash" as well as thinner oil and that's how the piston skirts are lubricated. Thicker oil also does not drain back to the sump as quickly as thinner oil-how much oil is really in the sump after start up and before the oil is fully warmed up? A sight glass on the side of the sump would be handy... Just another reason I would like to have a dry sump system.

I believe the rotation of the journals in the bearings has little if any "Pull" on the oil flow... There is no way to know for sure because we can't see in there while the engine is running so we are both just speculating.

I'll stay with a 5-40 or even 0-40 if I can find it, thank you.

ken

imaradiostar   Posted Thursday, Nov 2nd 4:51pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 930
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
This is what I'm talking about- arguments; I mean discussion!

I'm not worried about the bottom end of a BMW engine. All the ones I've ever seen feel would have failed regardless of oil weight! The kicker to me is cam lubrication- if a modern synth has better sheer strength and is thin enough to actually make it to the top of the engine from a cold start then this should be of greater long-term benefit than a thicker oil.

Another thing- I'd rather pull the oil pan and have to push in new rod/main bearings than have to replace rockers and a camshaft.

jamie

KenDanielson   Posted Thursday, Nov 2nd 5:19pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 192

Petaluma CA
'82 320is, '78 320i
Most people have strong opinions concerning oil and most are not based on pure science-including mine. I have tons of experience with many different types of internal combustion engines and I spend WAY too much time thinking about what makes them "HAPPY"...

I think I would rather rebuild the top end over the bottom end of the engine. I have never been one for just installing new bearings. Besides, if you remove the head for a rebuild it gives you the perfect opportunity to rework the ports and install a performance cam...

BTW, I nearly avoided this thread all together because of the argu- I mean dissucsisons...

ken

imaradiostar   Posted Thursday, Nov 2nd 8:28pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 931
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
Bench racing doesn't kill anyone- it's good to have a place where we can disagree and still get along. I could easily be way off on the oil thing but if I don't experiment I won't know for sure. I need to know!

jamie

aussie323i   Posted Friday, Nov 3rd 1:10am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 535

australia
1979 323i
lol... I think we basically have 2 discussions running here... and we all pretty much agree on most points- ie. if you have a new motor, run the thin stuff... if you have an old motor run the thicker stuff (it was recomended by the factory in any case )

The main reason I don't give the 0W40 oils a go down here is cost... Mobil 0W40 was $78AUD for 5 litres last time I checked... I can get my 10W60 for $38 ... that's still expensive compared to castrol 20W50 which is about $14!

Either way I change every 5000km so I think the engine is doing ok ;D

VIVA LA DIFFERENCE


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