Tech Forum : Castor Issues

ArnZ

Posted Sunday, May 20th 6:40pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 97

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

Hey guys

the other day i hit the gutter with a bit of speed (i hit the kerb with the front left wheel) because i swerved to avoid a tennager crossing the road without looking but luckily the teenager was fine though he ran off

the next day i replaced the rim and booked a wheel allignment to fix the toe

so we got her on the hoist and gave her a wheel allignment and the results were

LEFT WHEEL
Castor = +7.34 degrees
Camber = -0.34 degrees
Toe in = 1 mm

RIGHT WHEEL
Castor = +5.32 degrees
Camber = +0.30 degrees
Toe in = 1 mm

now because my castor is not even the car pulls to the left a little and whilst braking the car pulls to the right, as far as i feel the whole front suspension is messed up now

i plan to fix the castor problem but the guy told me i could have even bent the frame a little. is this possible???

i have a whole front suspension setup as spare from my parts car but the bushes on them need replacing, so does anyone know a good place in QLD Australia that sells bushes for e21's???

anyone hav an opinion on wat most likely is bent???

any input will help me guys

thanx

imaradiostar

Posted Sunday, May 20th 9:31pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 1049

Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i

My 535i was recently in a minor accident when it was hit while parked at the side of the road. After replacing all the suspension bits that were bent in the accident it still had a pull to one side, similar to yours. The alignment shop verified that the castor was pretty far off on one side.

I don't know how they did it but they brought it back into spec! Everything on the car (except toe) is non-adjustable so I'd imagine it envolved pushing and pulling on various parts of the suspension with large pry bars or a come-along. I don't even wanna know- it'd probably scare me. All I know is the car goes straight again and the insurance money was enough to put bilsteins and H&R springs on my car.

jamie

bmw_m_320i

Posted Sunday, May 20th 10:35pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 767

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

depending on how bad things are bent, you may be able to fix it with castor/camber plates, but the correct way would be to get it put on a frame machine if the control arms arent bent. when my e21 hydroplaned a few years ago, it bent the frame, and the castor was off on one side, I was actualy able to align it to where it didnt pull, but the car drove "dog legged" down the road

ArnZ

Posted Monday, May 21st 12:44am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 98

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

is it correct that our cars should have +8 Degrees of castor?

Boost_me

Posted Monday, May 21st 12:58am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 237

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

I would say no because that seem's like alot.....But I dont know why it say's that in the book, maybe it's right, that means that you lost 3degrees of castor just from what you did.....OR your castor was already out and you just knocked one side back in to 'normal' settings.....I would get it set up from the book, if you don't really know alot about it and how it changes your car. You really only need to beable to play with it yourself if your racing......but if I was you id put my car on a jig and get everything straightend ($$$$ = ???? = How much do you love your car???)......I don't know what it would cost to get this kind of work done as I would take it to a friend to get it fixed (I have a few people that help me out when I need it).....I would set it up to normal spec's if your not racing and want 'normal' tire wear....Even though the castor doesnt play a big roll in the tire wear, it certenly help's.....

ArnZ

Posted Monday, May 21st 4:36am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 99

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

how come in the bmw manual it says +8 degrees???

Greg323i

Posted Monday, May 21st 6:48am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 353

Melbourne, Australia
1982 Hennaröt 323i

Yeah, my Haynes shows:

Toe-in: 1.0 to 2.5 mm (1.4 to 2.6mm, April 1980 onwards)
Camber: -30' to + 30'
Castor: 7°50' to 8°50'

ArnZ

Posted Tuesday, May 22nd 12:59pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 100

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

update

so i had a look underneath the car today, the left side of the subframe looks a lil bent but the thing is, is that the left side, according to the results from the wheel allignment, is okay

then i had a look at the right side and everything looks normal

im a little confused to why the castor on the right side is out......

can anyone shed some light here?

Boost_me

Posted Tuesday, May 22nd 4:33pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 240

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

That is a very lar camber variation.....-30 - +30 degree's......So it mean's that your camber is NEVER out.....

I would say that your castor was always set to around 5 deg and when you smashed it moved the left side to 8 deg??

Madhatter

Posted Tuesday, May 22nd 4:57pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 192

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

What are you talking about? its not full degrees, 30 degrees would look like the wheels are near horizontal. Thats 0 degrees, +- 30', ie .3 of a degree, its not that big a swing, so of course your alignment could be out.

Not sure if you understand caster either. If you had an accident in the front you would push the wheel backwards which would result in less caster, shouldnt result in more. If they specified 8° from the factory, there isnt a caster adjustment in the front of the cars, so basically the only thing that would effect/alter it would be worn/broken strut mounts, bent strut tube, bent control arm or even damage to the swaybar which would impact on the control arm.

Specs for the front caster are 8° 20' +- 30'

You need to check the difference in angles between left and right once fixed/set, shouldnt be more than 30' between them. Also really need to check toe out on turns to make sure SAI angles are still correct, otherwise you could still have issues.

Ive got to go through all this very soon when installing the new plates, its not a pretty thing to mess about and can take a couple of hours dialing it in properly.

Im pretty sure there are measurements for the chassis in one of the manuals somewhere, gives you reference points to check for damage. Have to have a read through them and see if i can find it when ive got a moment to myself.

ArnZ

Posted Wednesday, May 23rd 2:34am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 101

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

madhatter if u can find those measurements it would be a great help, as i really want to know if there is any framework bent

as i said subframe looks a little bent as well as the left control arm

but.....

why is it that my right side castor out by 2ish degrees???

im stumped on this one

bmw_m_320i

Posted Wednesday, May 23rd 3:28am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 768

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

Boost_me wrote:

no thats 30' which is minutes not degrees, so basically 1/2 degree

Boost_me

Posted Wednesday, May 23rd 4:14am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 245

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

Hahaha, Sorry guy's I got that so so wrong.....

ArnZ

Posted Wednesday, May 23rd 6:00am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 102

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

lol @ boost_me

guys if i took pictures and posted them on here would that give you a better understanding of the problem???

bmw_m_320i

Posted Wednesday, May 23rd 6:29am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 769

Helena, Montana
none right now :(

a picture is worth a thousand words....so go right ahead

ArnZ

Posted Tuesday, May 29th 11:21am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 103

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

it was raining here today and i had a day off from studies so i decided to replace the whole front suspension.

after i did that my allignment is now out so tomoz morning i hav to get the toe fixed.

as for the castor i think the problem has been resolved. wen i brake i dont have to counter-steer to stay straight

but wen i drive straight the car still slowly goes to the left but this must be because my toe is out

anyways ill let you guys know tomorrow

Boost_me

Posted Wednesday, May 30th 8:29am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 256

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

I got a front wheel allignment done tody....
Spec's are as follows:

Camber: Left|-0.7 Right|-1.9
Castor: Left|7.5 Right|7.7
Toe: Left|0.1 Right|0.1 - Toe just put this way it was somthing like 4.5mm in so he set it to 0.0-0.1mm.
Then I have come home a read some spec's and seen it's supposed to be 1.5 (+/- .5mm) so I have rang him and he said to come back and he will fix it up for me.....But I must say it does seem to feel ALOT lighter on the steering.....Is it bad to leave it like this?? Also my camber is appently making my car steer to the left and to fix it I would need to get adjustables......So it looks like coil-over's.......In the future I mean........

Madhatter

Posted Wednesday, May 30th 10:27am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 201

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

coil overs wont do squat. only thing that will give you camber adjustment on the front is to fit adjustible top mounts.

ArnZ

Posted Wednesday, May 30th 10:54am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 104

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

i went to get a wheel allignment this morning and the sway bar to control arm bush on the right side has completely had it so i have to source some new ones from somewhere, does anyone know where i can get some here in australia preferably in queensland???

if i cant find any i might just have to order from overseas.

ArnZ

Posted Wednesday, May 30th 10:57am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 105

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

madhatter did u manage to find measurements for the chassis and the reference points to measure from???

Boost_me

Posted Wednesday, May 30th 4:46pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 259

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

I can get adjustable rose-joint (tierod?) ends......Coilover's are for the stiffness and body-roll with swaybars......And yes I know about pillow-ball top plates...... I know I wont beable to go and get those rose-joints from the shelf.....

Madhatter

Posted Thursday, May 31st 12:24am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 203

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

arnz, yeah, i found them, it is in the factory repair manual. If you dont have it, ill upload that portion of the manual tonight when i get home from work.

Boost me, what exactly are what is the point of an adjustible tie rod? even if you could adjust it on other axis, it wouldnt change caster or camber in the front. The sway bar largely holds the strut steady at the bottom, what you really need is an eccentric adjuster for the lower control arm where it mounts to the body. Otherwise, the top mounts are the go, but they are expensive here. I paid a little over $300 for the pair at trade, so you would be looking at over $400 retail.

Boost_me

Posted Thursday, May 31st 1:54am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 261

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

I was thinking a little more along the lines of this......

I dont mean to run against the grain here, I was talking to the guy at the shop when I got my wheel allignment and they're somthing he suggested to me, Plus I have seen them alot because of all the drifting nowadays.....Adjustable Tie Rod's would add steering lock, I would want lower arm's and see If i could get a whiteline sway bar....This car in this pic has adjustable swaybar end's too, I think....

ArnZ

Posted Thursday, May 31st 11:22am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 106

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

Madhatter wrote:

arnz, yeah, i found them, it is in the factory repair manual. If you dont have it, ill upload that portion of the manual tonight when i get home from work.

yeh mate if you can up load that portion of the manual it would be great.

Gabi_323i

Posted Thursday, May 31st 1:39pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 132

Bucharest, Romania
11/80 323i 2.7i Motronic 1.3

Madhatter wrote:

arnz, yeah, i found them, it is in the factory repair manual. If you dont have it, ill upload that portion of the manual tonight when i get home from work.

what factory manual?

i have the "workshop manual" but i think is incomplete
1. 17-Radiator BMW workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
2. 18 & 21 - Exhasut System and Clutch BMW workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
3. 23-Manual Transmission BMW Workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
4. 24-Automatic Transmission BMW Workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
5. 25-Gearshift mechanism BMW Workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
6. 26-Driveshaft BMW Workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
7. Cover Contents & Introduction BMW Workshop manual E21.pdf
8. 00-Maintenace and general hints BMW Workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
9. 11-Motor BMW Workshop manual E21 3 series.pdf
10. 12- Engine electrical BMW Workshop Manual E213 series.pdf
11. 13 - Fuel Supply & Adjustments BMW work shop manual E21 3 series.pdf
12. 16- Fuel tank and lines BMW sorkshop manual E21 3 series.pdf

Madhatter

Posted Thursday, May 31st 4:16pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 205

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

Boost_me wrote:

Those arent tie rods dude. They are radius or caster rods and are something you wont find standard on a bmw. If you take note, it doesnt run a control arm anymore, everything has been replaced and new mounts have been added. Thats not a simple job and i dont know how much you think you will spend to have something like that done. Basically you end up removing and replacing everything that holds the front end suspension of an e21 together.

Awesome setup, but will cost you a packet, not just in parts, but in fabrication costs to actually mount them to the car.

Gabi, yeah, you dont have the complete manual. Uploading now, its 18 meg, will take a little while, so ill post back with the link tomorrow.

Madhatter

Posted Thursday, May 31st 5:18pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 207

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

finished uploading before bed.

Steering and wheel alignment

Save file as.

ArnZ

Posted Friday, Jun 1st 2:59am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 107

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

Madhatter wrote:

finished uploading before bed.

Steering and wheel alignment

Save file as.

cheers mate

Boost_me

Posted Friday, Jun 1st 6:04am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 262

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

Yeah, sorry I got that wrong, I'm still learning, you know when your at that age (21-22) and you 'know it all'...I acknowledge it and am sorry. I know that swet-up could not be cheap, and would probably need lotsa hours of fabrication, I didnt want a set-up exactly like it, I just wanted to beable to adjust camber/castor from the bottom like I spoke to the guy at the shop about.....So in order to use those top plate's you got for $300-$400 do I need to have coil-overs?? I can get a coilover conversion kit's from this website I cant find it right now but it's for I think $400-500.....That's including, eibach spring's and both top and bottom plats the spring sits in.....I forget what else....I'll have to find it....Yeah, but can I use those top plates with my stock suspension??......

Madhatter

Posted Friday, Jun 1st 10:59am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 209

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

no, you dont need coil overs. Yes you can use them with your stock suspension.

The problem with adjusting the camber and caster from the bottom is there is nothing on the control arm that would give you caster adjustment. Basically, there isnt any way you could move the strut forward or back from underneath, camber would be easy as you could make an eccentric bush and install it in the control arm, but caster isnt so easy with the machperson setup they use.

Coil over kits generally wont come with adjustible strut tops, thats a seperate thing.

ArnZ

Posted Friday, Jun 1st 12:47pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 108

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

madhatter i had a look at that pdf and couldnt find the part you were talking about...

Madhatter

Posted Friday, Jun 1st 4:47pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 210

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

Bugger, its in body. Ill have to take some images of that and save them as jpegs because its a rather large file. Ill do it tomorrow when i get home from work.

ArnZ

Posted Friday, Jun 1st 5:09pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 109

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

no worries mate

Madhatter

Posted Saturday, Jun 2nd 8:43am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 211

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

Here we go.

Boost_me

Posted Saturday, Jun 2nd 11:26am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 263

Victoria, Australia
1981 BMW 323i

Oh ok cool, So where did you obtain your's????...I'm thinking that I would have to go to a specialist place for suspension to get them???.....But other than that, that's great, thank's for clearing it up for me......Now that I think about it you are deffinatly right, the top would have to pivot in order for the bottom to pivot properly and not put un-needed stress on the body, mainly around the strut top's....I appologise for not thinking ahead......

Madhatter

Posted Saturday, Jun 2nd 12:19pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 212

Australia - QLD
E21, E24, E30

Through noltec, delivered by one of their distributors.

You dont need to appologise dude, you havent done anything wrong and nobody is having a go at you. Its not so much stress, its just the design of the suspension means that it only has a limited number of fixed points which could be used to alter alignment settings.

Its a very basic design, you have a trailing arm connected to the stub axle, mounted to the chassis or subframe, a sway bar passing through it to keep things in place and to provide some assistance, then a mount at the top that holds the suspension together.

Basically, the only points you could use to make any kind of adjustment would be where the control arm bolts to the chassis, or the strut top. The control arm would be easy as you could probably find an eccentric bush in the right diameter to fit. Like the rear subframe mod, all you would need is to weld a couple of tabs either side of the mount to provide leverage against the adjuster, then put through a bolt and eccentric and you are laughing.

They make strut tops because you dont need to press fit anything, you just bolt up and have fun with your alignment.

ArnZ

Posted Saturday, Jun 2nd 4:28pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 111

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

madhatter ur a machine!!!!!

thanks for that, will be checking my frame maybe tomoz if i finish my assignment early.

ArnZ

Posted Thursday, Jun 14th 10:38am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]

Member
Post nr. 113

Qld, Australia
BMW 323i

Okay so i got a wheel allignment and im very happy with the results.

The two degrees in difference that we were looking for is now resloved and she drives like a beauty once again
and brakes without counter steering

the results are:

LEFT WHEEL
Castor = +8.42 degrees
Camber = -1.44 degrees
Toe in = 1 mm

RIGHT WHEEL
Castor = +8.53 degrees
Camber = -1.14 degrees
Toe in = 1 mm

thanks for helping guys