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Tech Forum : My custom CIS turbo project (56k death)

- BMW E21 Community
   - Tech Forum
      - My custom CIS turbo project (56k death)
jrcook320   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:25pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Hey guys, I've been working on a custom turbo setup for my 320i and things are nearing completion. Here are some brief specs:

Motor:
2.0L stroker with stock cast flat top pistons, 8:1 CR
TEP lightened flywheel
I-J crank scraper
1.8 Ported & polished head, 280 cam, fatty valve springs (may be a little big for FI, we'll see)
65mm E12 throttle body

Fuel system /eng management:
Volvo 240t fuel distributor
Porsche 924 turbo air flow meter
Audi 5000s turbo boost enrich WUR
Volvo ignition boost retard canister
Stand alone knock sensor

Turbo setup:
Dinan manifold
Garrett T25, 60 trim .80 AR, internal gate (from a S13 nissan silvia)
ebay 12" FMIC
Hallman pro MBC
DSM blow off valve
divorced port dump pipe
2.5" straight through exaust with side exit


I'm hoping to be able to supply enough fuel to run 10-12 psi and get up around 220 hp. Pics:


















jrcook320   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:29pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i











jrcook320   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:29pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i















jrcook320   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:30pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i













JJG323   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:32pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1273
   
Reading MA USA
1979 BMW 323i
looking good.
I see you used a crank scraper and other parts,
that seem like its going to be a great end result.

What HP and TQ are you shooting for?


jrcook320   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:33pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
And here's the last 2 as of last night with the intake installed.




For all the pics from start to finish: Turbo Project pics


jrcook320   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 1:40pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
JJG323 wrote:
looking good.
I see you used a crank scraper and other parts,
that seem like its going to be a great end result.

What HP and TQ are you shooting for?


I'm hoping for between 200 and 220 at the fly. Not sure about torque but it should be close to the same.

redmist   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 5:08pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 976
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
Beautiful!
One thing why a T25 and an .80 AR? I would think a T3 and a something closer to a .48 AR.
Really georgeous craftsmanship.

realcrouton   Posted Wednesday, Oct 4th 11:03pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 47
   
Washington, USA
1977 320i, 1981 323i, 1991 325ic, 2000 328i
Absolutely stunning work! I do have one (possibly stupid) question though. It looks like that big intercooler you have is blocking pretty much the whole radiator; will this restrict air flow to the radiator enough to be a problem?

Again, awesome job.

-Dave

jrcook320   Posted Thursday, Oct 5th 12:56am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Thanks guys.

I started collecting turbo parts years ago and came across a Dinan rough cast turbo manifold for cheap on ebay so I picked it up. It was too small to fit a T3 so I had them drill holes for a T25 so that limited me right there. The turbo is off of a Nissan Sylvia and is capable of over 250hp on the SR20DET. After lots of air flow calculations and compressor maps I settled on that one. I want a low boost threshold and minimal lag for autox, the T25 should give me that without being too inefficient on the top end. It was also readily available for cheap ($155 on ebay). The turbine A/R is .60, the compressor reads .80. If it turns out to be a little small I can easily and cheaply upgrade to a journal bearing T28 from a newer S14 or ball bearing T28 S15 Nissan Sylvia and have some longer legs.

The intercooler was actually the cheapest, smallest one I could find by a huge margin (thank you again, ebay and China). It will block some air flow but it shouldn't be a problem for now. The volvo 240 turbo had a large thin intercooler that completely covered the radiator with no problems.

Next summer I'll likely go with a much larger aluminum radiator to keep things cool but for now I'm just trying to get the car on the road. Cooling won't be a problem in November with a stock radiator and the car will be parked for the winter so I can revise the setup as needed.

bmw_m_320i   Posted Thursday, Oct 5th 5:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 721
   
Helena, Montana
none right now :(
that's actually a smaller intercooler, I've got one that 12x24x4, it wont block that much airflow, and a larger radiator would be a good idea anyways with a turbo

El-74-   Posted Saturday, Oct 7th 6:32am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 10
   
Argentina
320/6
why did you use sotck pistons?? and so big turbo?? isnīt better forged pistons and a smaller turbine with more pressure.... with 1kg/1.2 you can get aprox 300hp....

but.... its only a commmentary...

congratulations!!! its look very good

Flieger   Posted Saturday, Oct 7th 6:39am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 15
   
Thousand Oaks, California, USA
1983 E21 320i,M10,5 speed Getrag overdrive,alloys,Alpinweiss
Hi! Awesome project. Looks like a blast. I can't get your photo link to work. Am I just a moron or is the link bad?

Thanks for the pictures you posted.

jrcook320   Posted Monday, Oct 9th 7:12am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
El-74- wrote:
why did you use sotck pistons?? and so big turbo?? isnīt better forged pistons and a smaller turbine with more pressure.... with 1kg/1.2 you can get aprox 300hp....

but.... its only a commmentary...

congratulations!!! its look very good

Yes, forged pistons are better. I built the motor NA over 6 years ago. It was my first engine build, I had absolutely no experience with cars let alone BMW's, and no forum access and everything I know is self taught. I stroked the 1.8 to 2.0 using stock american flat top pistons and the 1.8 head which reduced my compression ratio to 8:1 which is very low. I didn't realize I had done this until reading several years later about the different CC's of the combustion chambers, so I decided to start collecting turbo parts since I ended up with an ideal CR.

The turbo is actually fairly small for a 2.0L, its a T25 off a 2.0L nissan sylvia. I did a large amount of research, math, and studying compressor maps before selecting this turbo, and for the air mass that my motor will flow at 12psi this turbo is actually going to be a little on the small side. A smaller turbo at higher pressure is hardly ever better. If its too small you will be way out of the efficiency range of the turbo which means you're producing more heat and heat is the #1 enemy of a turbo engine. If you size the turbo right, you can actually make more power at lower boost pressures (which will be safer and more reliable) while at the same time minimizing lag and boost threshold and maximizing (or making less compromize) on the top end. My goal is to have a very low boost threshold (maybe start boosting at 2500 rpm, maybe lower?) for midrange power on the auto x course.

Zolika_e21   Posted Tuesday, Oct 10th 10:39am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 34

Hungary
e21_M54_30
Awesome work !!!

jrcook320   Posted Thursday, Oct 12th 12:55am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Ok guys, I have the car running, but only on #2 and #3 cylinders. I can pull #1 and #4 plug wires with no difference to how it runs. I pulled the injectors and did a flow test and my spray patterns all looked good and the volumes were equal.

Edit: I'm an idiot. I was thinking the distributor turned clockwise instead of counterclockwise and had the firing order bass ackwards. Swapped the wires around and fired right up.

jrcook320   Posted Friday, Oct 13th 4:16am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
I got things tuned in enough that it runs pretty decent. So far I've just putted around town and drove it to work today. I haven't revved past 3500 yet, but I eased into the throttle in 2nd gear and started to spin both wheels at 3000 rpm at only 6 psi, then backed out cause I was scared. hahaha, this thing is going to be so much fun!!! I get so many stares driving around...

Here's some pics I snapped today of the mostly finished engine:










Tonight I'll finish up the exhaust and do a bit of tuning.

bmw_m_320i   Posted Saturday, Oct 14th 5:26am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 725
   
Helena, Montana
none right now :(
SWEET makes me jealous mine is still on the stand!

e21 turbo   Posted Monday, Oct 16th 7:42pm [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1


bmw e21
nice work dude,very clean setup...
keep us posted...

jrcook320   Posted Thursday, Oct 19th 12:03am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Well, I got things running up around 10 psi right now and this thing is fast. I raced my buddies IROC last weekend which is a low 13 second car. From a roll at 40 mph in 3rd gear I either pull away from him or we're dead even. From a stand still we both have traction problems in 1 and 2, when he grabs second he pulls a car length on me, then we're pretty much dead even from there till about 110 mph. If I could hook this thing up (IRS is not for drag racing), we estimated I could be running a high 13 in the quarter mile. Not bad at all...

When pulling through 2nd and 3rd gear the car squats so hard that if there is even a minor dip in the road the exhaust drags. My buddies said I was throwing sparks at night.

jrcook320   Posted Thursday, Oct 19th 12:10am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
The rest of the exhaust is fabbed up and it really quieted the motor down. The turbo whistles a LOT now too which is cool (I love that sound!!).







bmw_m_320i   Posted Thursday, Oct 19th 4:20am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 726
   
Helena, Montana
none right now :(
I love the Side exit exhaust, what type of muffler are you using?

jrcook320   Posted Tuesday, Oct 24th 3:48am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
It's a Dynomax Thrush straight through perforated core "glass pack".

imaradiostar   Posted Thursday, Nov 23rd 4:07am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 947
   
Nashville, TN
81 323i, 82 525i, 85 524td, 90 535i
OK, I had to hold off before commenting here because of my own CIS frustrations; lame reason I suppose. I've since fixed my CIS rig and thought of some things to ask. I apologize if some of this has already been mentioned!

Hats off, this is an excellent build! I have a set of Volvo 240 turbo CIS components that's been set aside for a future project similar to this. Of course I pictured my project as a budget job and nowhere near as well put together as your car! I've always been a fan of building a project similar to this- smallish turbo, moderate boost levels and hopefully great fuel mileage. I think the smaller turbo is a good way to go though it could proove deadly to your engine when pushed- imperfect pressure ratios, too much heat, engine goes boom! Of course it wouldn't be tough to go to a different turbo when you get to that point.

I like the built in pressure test set- I've been looking for a digital way to do the same so I can have control pressure at a glance inside the car. I feel like it'd be great to know how different driving effects control pressure. I've been driving around with no interior or heater box in my 323i and I have my CIS pressure test set hanging through the firewall- probably not safe but it's only temporary! It's neat to see the pressure change with driving style but tough to track all the changes, thus the need for an electronic version- certainly useful to see how boost effects control pressure.

Did you have to build a custom WUR to get he pressures correct for your car? Are you using the Volvo ECU or the BMW ECU? I have a Volvo 760 CIS rig set aside with the thought that I might add the lambda sensor rig down the line somewhere- probably with a home made lambda harness using a 320i ECU.

Are you using a wideband oxygen sensor for tuning?

How much boost are you up to now?

Have you considered making a heat shield to prevent hot air from the radiator from getting to the air intake?

Once again, congratulations and great job! There's nothing quite like hopping into a project car after hours of slaving away and driving the heck out of it!

jamie

jrcook320   Posted Thursday, Nov 23rd 9:50am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Well, the Nissan guys say this turbo is good for up to 250 hp. According to my calculations, I will flow approximately 23 lbs/min at 7000rpm at 12 psi. On a flow map of a T25 60 trim .48 AR (the only T25 map I could find) I wouldn't drop below 68% efficiency. My turbo is a 60 trim .80 AR, so I should have a little more room to play up there. If it becomes a problem I can easily swap in a T28 from a newer Silvia.

A digital fuel pressure gage would be awesome. I'd love to be able to see what it's doing from inside the car.

My WUR is off a Volvo 240 turbo which has boost and vacuum ports and thus far I have only had to adjust the cold control pressure. I have modified it to be externally adjustable but the car runs excellent as is warm or cold.

I only have a narrow band O2 sensor right now. As money allows I will upgrade to wideband but I need a new clutch, tires and fuel pump in the spring.

I am set at 11 psi right now as a daily driver. My stock fuel pump is beginning to give up and the car is leaning out above 5500 rpm. I will either run a Bosche 044 motorsport pump or a Walbo gsl392 pump, then crank the system pressure up to 90-95 psi. I hope to be pushing 250 bhp when it's all said and done.

jrcook320   Posted Saturday, Nov 25th 11:17am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Heres a quick vid of a 1-2 wheel spinnin' launch on Thanksgiving.

E21 burnout

In car vid rowing through the gears, spinning through 1 & 2 with slipping clutch in 5th
E21 drag

And a vid of the boost gage on a 60-90 mph 4th gear pull.
boost gage

And another of the tach/speedo from 60-90 mph (530i speedo is 10 mph fast)
speedo & tach

0321marine320i   Posted Saturday, Dec 2nd 8:15am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 2
   
SC
320i
My auto knowledge is about where yours was when you first started, I have been reading the forum off and on for a couple years, but most of it is over my head. what resources did you use to advance your techno knowledge

redmist   Posted Sunday, Dec 3rd 12:47am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 1013
   
NY USA
357i , 325i e30 turbo
links don't work

jrcook320   Posted Monday, Dec 4th 6:36am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
redmist wrote:
links don't work

fixed.


0321marine320i, I rebuilt my first E21 with nothing more than a Haynes manual. Things took me a lot longer than they do now, but just reading and doing is how I learned. The right place to be to learn more is on forums like Tricord and bimmerforums, you'll learns as you go, or as necessary.

The first place I started for the turbo project was reading "maximum boost". From there I did countless hours of research online and on various forums to determine what parts to use and how I was going to use them.

bmw_m_320i   Posted Tuesday, Dec 5th 5:36am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 734
   
Helena, Montana
none right now :(
Agreed, Research everything! I've always been the type to learn on my own, and Have started working on cars at a young age growing up in an E12 that would smoke a Mustang GT everyday of the week with me strapped in the child seat in the back! Research will get you a LONG way....It took me from wrenching on my E21 to being the head technician in the area's most respected Independant BMW repair facility

ads 323   Posted Thursday, Dec 21st 10:00am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 3

nsw australia
e21 323 turbo
the exaust looks good dus it srape on drive ways and speed humps

ads 323   Posted Thursday, Dec 21st 10:05am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Member
Post nr. 4

nsw australia
e21 323 turbo
weres the bern out? there is no smoke

jrcook320   Posted Monday, Mar 19th 5:06am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
ads 323 wrote:
weres the bern out? there is no smoke

Where's a vid of a burnout in your car? What else do you call it when the tires are spinning through 1st and 2nd? It was cold out and I didn't brake stand it to get the tires hot enough to smoke. A true brake stand burnout video will be posted this spring, I'm buying new tires and I'll be sure to send the old ones to rest properly.

Yes, the exhaust scrapes. The purpose of the side exit was to get the car on the road as soon as possible. When time permits I'll fab up the rest to split to duals and exit a la 323i style.

jrcook320   Posted Tuesday, Mar 27th 1:13am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car]
Junior Member
Post nr. 1
   
Van Wert, OH
'81 320i
Here's the brake stand, as promised:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J87t-ZoX5-0


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